Saxophones Conn 150th Anniversary Alto Saxophone

They are more than a cigar box. I was surprised to see the Cecellio Mendini being called an acceptable beginning student sax. A few websites listed them as suitable. I bought a used alto in new condition, which had the harder to obtain black nickel finish, gave it to a mid schooler who played trumpet but wanted to do reeds.

Yes, I suppose there are marginal no-name ones out there. The Venus alto saxophone was rated acceptable by Stephen Howard. I've got the Venus tenor and sop, they play decently, like an intermediate.
Like an intermediate what tho ?

Not like an intermediate Allora, for example...a brand which does not have much cred (although it should have more) .
Certainly not like the Jupe or Yama intermediates.

Your comment begs the question:

what IS the checklist which would define a horn 'playing like an intermediate' exactly ?

There would have to be attributes attached to that, somewhat objective, that can be used as a yardstick.

Intermediate ...although there are those who will argue the term is pointless and meaningless...does intimate that certain qualities of the instrument are 'elevated', more precise, more responsive, more thought-out...to the degree that they significantly exceed the performance of 'student'. In many instances this may in fact be a BS term (some contemporary companies simply choose a different lacquer hue, maybe add a Bb to Eb pinky connector and a pearl inlay at the G#, and substitute a teardrop front F touch for a round pearl one, and call it their "pro model, sure...).....

But in the cases of reputed brands, there really IS a distinction in performance (blowing response, key response, tonality, etc, etc), sometimes in build precision as well. So what yardstick do we need to use for that ?
 
Yes, but it can be useful to know what we mean when we say a dark, mellow, bright .... sax. If a player wants a big bore and the sound it produce then he/she needs a A.Sax .... .
What we're trying to say here is that "large bore" and "small bore": a) aren't definable by a single number, because the saxophone is a CONE; b) do not necessarily correlate to what you think they correlate to.

Let's consider some saxophones of varying hypothetical design. Let's also assume, and it's a big assumption, that for all of these the tone holes are properly located to have an in-tune scale at A=440, with a mouthpiece of average internal volume.

#1 is the totally average saxophone of 2025. The ID at any position down its length is the average of saxophones made today.

#2 starts with a smaller bore at the neck aperture, but the cone has a steeper angle, so the ID is larger than #1 from about halfway down.

#3 starts with a larger bore at the neck aperture, but the cone has a shallower angle, so the ID is smaller than #1 from about halfway down.

#4 starts with a larger neck aperture and has the same cone angle as #1, so its ID is larger all the way down.

#5 is the converse of that; starts with a smaller neck aperture and has the same cone angle as #1, so its ID is smaller all the way down.

#6 ~ #894 are additional variants that need not be explored here.

Now, for those of you who like to issue pronouncements about "large bore" versus "Small bore" saxophones:

OK, it seems pretty clear that #4 could be honestly called "large" and #5 could honestly be called "small"; but what about #2 and #3? They have portions of their length with larger than average ID and portions with smaller than average ID.

Next question: what is your expectation of the playing and tonal qualities of saxophones #2 ~ #5? What is the basis for your statement? If you have played a "large bore" horn and concluded that its playing qualities were the result of it being a "large bore horn", did you have MEASUREMENTS to determine whether it was a #2, #3, or #4 type? Did you have ANY measurements at all, or was it just that someone told you it was a large bore horn, because they heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it...

Or was the OUTER DIAMETER of the tenon larger, which means NOTHING to the ID, as the wall thickness of the tenon is chosen by the designer for purely mechanical reasons.

Lastly, I invite anyone interested in this discussion to view Marten Postma's actual data. Note that the deviations from cone shape in bells, bows, and necks generally far exceed horn-to-horn differences in the taper of the main body section. Those deviations are mainly due to the requirements of manufacturing. How do you account for their effects (especially in the neck which affects all notes on the instrument) when you declare this horn a "large bore" one and that horn a "small bore" one?
 
This brought back a memory from 45 years ago. Some older violin players talked about children who wrecked violins by transporting them on bikes. One said that they could also learn to play the violin on instruments build from wooden cigar boxes. The parents wouldn't notice the difference.

Maybe the bundy ii and cheap asian saxophones are the equivalent of a cigar box violin.
I think that the past couple of decades, again, has resurrected the Bundys as being respectable and not a bad choice on a budget, though.

The contemporary Chinese/Asian cheapos (am talking brand-new, $500 or less alto, let's say) .....hardly, however. It is BECAUSE of the latter that the former have been re-recognized. Interesting phenom. And deservedly welcome, too.

I mean, hand a good player (not pro necessarily but even just a seasoned enough, inspired amateur) a Bundy in good tack....the most common response will be "this is way better than what I ever thought", (then the next common might be the stiff pinky tables, but hey....)
 
What we're trying to say here is that "large bore" and "small bore": a) aren't definable by a single number, because the saxophone is a CONE; b) do not necessarily correlate to what you think they correlate to.

Let's consider some saxophones of varying hypothetical design. Let's also assume, and it's a big assumption, that for all of these the tone holes are properly located to have an in-tune scale at A=440, with a mouthpiece of average internal volume.

#1 is the totally average saxophone of 2025. The ID at any position down its length is the average of saxophones made today.

#2 starts with a smaller bore at the neck aperture, but the cone has a steeper angle, so the ID is larger than #1 from about halfway down.

#3 starts with a larger bore at the neck aperture, but the cone has a shallower angle, so the ID is smaller than #1 from about halfway down.

#4 starts with a larger neck aperture and has the same cone angle as #1, so its ID is larger all the way down.

#5 is the converse of that; starts with a smaller neck aperture and has the same cone angle as #1, so its ID is smaller all the way down.

#6 ~ #894 are additional variants that need not be explored here.

Now, for those of you who like to issue pronouncements about "large bore" versus "Small bore" saxophones:

OK, it seems pretty clear that #4 could be honestly called "large" and #5 could honestly be called "small"; but what about #2 and #3? They have portions of their length with larger than average ID and portions with smaller than average ID.

Next question: what is your expectation of the playing and tonal qualities of saxophones #2 ~ #5? What is the basis for your statement? If you have played a "large bore" horn and concluded that its playing qualities were the result of it being a "large bore horn", did you have MEASUREMENTS to determine whether it was a #2, #3, or #4 type? Did you have ANY measurements at all, or was it just that someone told you it was a large bore horn, because they heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it...

Or was the OUTER DIAMETER of the tenon larger, which means NOTHING to the ID, as the wall thickness of the tenon is chosen by the designer for purely mechanical reasons.

Lastly, I invite anyone interested in this discussion to view Marten Postma's actual data. Note that the deviations from cone shape in bells, bows, and necks generally far exceed horn-to-horn differences in the taper of the main body section. Those deviations are mainly due to the requirements of manufacturing. How do you account for their effects (especially in the neck which affects all notes on the instrument) when you declare this horn a "large bore" one and that horn a "small bore" one?
Add also bow radius....that is one that I have noticed can be quite variable, and I have even noticed manufacturers over a long period of time (say 30 years or more) having changed their bow radius in their offerings...
 
Like an intermediate what tho ? Not like an intermediate Allora, for example...a brand which does not have much cred (although it should) . Certainly not like the Jupe or Yama intermediates.
I am a bit curious, but it seems about the time that Antigua Winds, a decent Taiwan brand started to fade, the Allora's came into being. I have two AW's, an alto and a low A bari. Both play extremely well. The alto plays as well as my old YAS-61. The only reason why I steered from the Allora's was it was the "new kid on the block", I hadn't seen any feedback yeah or nah.

Have you serviced any Venus' saxes?

Here is what @Stephen Howard said on his repair blog:
S.H. said:
Under the fingers the Venus felt well laid out and quite well set up. I actually had to raise the action a touch, which was quite a surprise - cheap horns often have too high an action from new. The only obvious issues were the play in the octave mech and the noise/vibration from the rubber bumpers - everything else seemed to be where it was supposed to be, and did what it was supposed to do. The front top F key tweak paid dividends - the teardrop-shaped touchpiece is a boon, but it has to be in the right place if it's going to do its job properly.

The Venus is quite an easy blow. Tonewise it's obviously a modern student horn, with a lively feel to it and with perhaps just enough warmth to keep the tone from dropping into shrillness. The low notes were crisp and punchy and the top register was clean and precise. The tone is even enough across the range and the tuning is fine.

I've had the Venus brand on my list of recommended Ultra-Cheap horns for some time time now, and have seen a number of examples over the last couple of years or so - but this is the first time I've formally reviewed one. It's quite a tough test for such a cheap instrument to undergo a review after a year's use, but I think it fared very well.

Couple that comment with other comments I've seen dotted around the web from other Venus owners, which seems to indicate that this is a consistent and reputable brand, and it seems pretty clear to me that Venus maintains its place on my list.

I would knock off a point or two for the play in the octave key mechanism and the rubber bumpers, but both are minor issues and could be dealt with quite easily - which would make the horn feel and play as good as it looks.

Considering the sub £200 price for the basic model, the excellent finish, the general build quality and the playability, I feel the Venus represents very good value for money - and given that the example reviewed has stood up to a year's use in the hands of a young beginner I wouldn't have any qualms about recommending it as a good, sturdy student instrument.
I truly love my Venus sop. Had it serviced recently, it is my fav.

The tenor? It plays well. I can make it sing. It has a good feel about it. I've used it in public.

But regarding your comment about the Jupe's, ever since I got my Vito 7133T serviced, it is now my fav, as it has an unbelievably beautiful subtone in its lower register. I can get that classic deep tenor subtone even on my Bari Esprit mouthpiece. (I don't need projection in a medium size dining room or with the community band - need balance to support the upper woodwinds.)
 
I think that the past couple of decades, again, has resurrected the Bundys as being respectable and not a bad choice on a budget, though. .... I mean, hand a good player (not pro necessarily but even just a seasoned enough, inspired amateur) a Bundy in good tack....the most common response will be "this is way better than what I ever thought", (then the next common might be the stiff pinky tables, but hey....)
Since I picked up a very decent 1952 Beaugnier Vito 37 alto and got it serviced, I now have a recently serviced Bundy II alto that would make a good starter for a grandchild within the extended family.

Got another Bundy II alto very inexpensively recently. It needs new pads, but I can apply the lessons learned on the Vito tenor that I repadded and Tarpley finished the tweaks. I now have a decent leak light that I didn't have before.

Some time back I listened to a Bundy II tenor on YT, it was able to hold its own on a solo.

Maybe we'll see Conn-Sel bring back the Vitos?
 
From the difference in sound between a 6M and a conn firmation I doubt that they have comparable bores.
Just looking at the bell opening gives a visual indication. I prefer the sound of the 6M in the high notes.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jolzr2Es7E
Would be interesting to hear comparisons of all Conn top altos from the last 134 years. At minimum a 24,28 & 94m.
 
He talks WAY too much...but...yeah they don't sound the same...
The only way I could be convinced would be if a human (especially an endorsers) wasn't involved, or it was double blind (not possible I imagine) or a machine ie a robot embouchure. And maybe without an inappropriate reverb.

It is so easy to play the same horn and sound very different on two takes. But anyway, we know the video appears to be just marketing so hopefully you don't get taken in.
 
He talks WAY too much...but...yeah they don't sound the same...but the $7000 one sounds nice.
After a minute I hit fast forward. Captions work on FF.
He kept blabbering about six minutes. Yawn 🥱
Every time he stopped playing I hit FF and just read the captions.
Did I miss any comments on this 150m being mouthpiece friendly? Looks like he’s playing a blue $20 3D printed Meyer copy from Fleabay. Odd choice on a $7k horn.
 
But what is it?
1771277358762.webp


Dunno 🤷‍♂️. It doesn’t look like the Fleabay one. I just looked.
 
Having played that saxophone at the NAMM show, and listening to / discussing with several other players., it’s a very good alto. Nice core, warm sound, fells alive when you play it.

Not worth $7K, though. It’s a “trial baloon” from Conn-Selmer to see if there might be a market to add it to the Conn brand. The fancy engraving and overdone finish would probably not part of a regular horn.
 
Having played that saxophone at the NAMM show, and listening to / discussing with several other players., it’s a very good alto. Nice core, warm sound, fells alive when you play it.

Not worth $7K, though. It’s a “trial baloon” from Conn-Selmer to see if there might be a market to add it to the Conn brand. The fancy engraving and overdone finish would probably not part of a regular horn.
I hope they would figure out to do away with that ridiculously finished bellbrace and put on some more normal looking guards, by then....neither of those aspects lend any sort of attraction....
 

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