Saxophones Conn 150th Anniversary Alto Saxophone

[Ghr9204]

I have lost track of the number of techs who when confronted with the question: "I need a sax for my kid but cannot afford a used Yamaha or Jupe....should I get a new asian cheapie for $400-500 ? or a Bundy 1 or 2 ?" ...always reply "get the Bundy". I mean, it's literally almost unanimous opinion. And I concur. Every time I refurb a Bundy, I gotta admit , by today's yardstick, these are respectable saxes still.

I see a "case in point" by your rebuttal. If a child has one of these respectable Bundy's in a good state or repair, they are much further ahead to learn to play it proficiently. When they have advanced sufficiently, then may be the time to upgrade, say by the time they are in college.

Helen's article may be true - but it leaves out something pretty significant: A used 23 alto in play shape, circa 2012, not pristine but not bad looking,, ran around $400-450. A used Bundy ran $250. Today, a used 23 in good play shape runs $600-750 (really it does)...a used Bundy 1 or 2, or Conn Shooting Star... runs $375-450. Besides perhaps Allora , there is currently NO used sax make/model, of good quality and reliability, which can exist at that Bundy/Conn price point.

This is where the lowly Vito can be a suitable pricing alternative, usually going for about a third to half less to its brand name counterpart. Depending on year, these stencils can be Beaugnier, Yanagisawa, Yamaha or Jupiter in disguise.

Last night at our Salvation Army Kettle Kickoff Dinner fund raiser, I did the Christmas dining music on my lowly Le Blanc Vito 7133T Jupiter tenor, love the beautiful subtone it produces in its lower register. I bought it used for a touch over $400 US in 2010. If a Yamaha YTS-23 or Jupiter JTS-689, I could have easily spent double that. It is a good Ramen eater's sax.

So I agreed with you, we cannot pass judgment on this pseudo-Conn limited model quite yet. I just see some red flags which indicate final judgment will not be anything glowing, is all. But indeed, we don't know. Maybe it'll be pretty good...

I think the key is in your statement, "But indeed, we don't know. Maybe it'll be pretty good...". Its corporate leadership has changed, why "Conn" is before "Selmer" (the US, not FR company). It's leadership is working on steering the corporation in a new direction.

The sax's main barrier is its pricing point, but it was intended as a collector edition. As time progresses, with say a line based on this model in plain clear or tinted lacquer and with laser instead of hand engraving, be placed in a less expensive but still sturdy case, IMO, we may easily see it drop $1,500 - $2,000 to what most would expect.

 

[Grumps]

@Grumps will tell us when he and Marty playtest one at a trade show, though.

Both our hotel rooms have an extra sleep sofa. Should you come join us... it's your choice!

 

[JayeNM]

This is where the lowly Vito can be a suitable pricing alternative, usually going for about a third to half less to its brand name counterpart. Depending on year, these stencils can be Beaugnier, Yanagisawa, Yamaha or Jupiter in disguise.

I agree as Vito Japans were Yama 21's and 23's, identical. Amazingly, I will share this, oftentimes when I point this out to potential customers...the $100 price differential between one engraved Vito vs. Yamaha, on the EXACT SAME model, they are willing to pay the $100 to have it read Yamaha ...go figure.

Thing is, nowadays, though, Vito Japans are also NOT cheap anymore. One which is decent looking, not bad looking...is still around $500-600. A nice looking one is $650. So again, almost double the price of a nice looking Bundy 2. A project Vito Japan, fairly decent looks, is around $300-350 these days, not playing of course.

The Vito by Jupiters, aka "Vito LeBlancs" I agree, may be even more of a sleeper. People want the Japan versions, so the Taiwan made ones get dismissed oftentimes and darn to me if they aren't AS GOOD or better than the Japan 23's.

 

[JayeNM]

I think the key is in your statement, "But indeed, we don't know. Maybe it'll be pretty good...". Its corporate leadership has changed, why "Conn" is before "Selmer" (the US, not FR company). It's leadership is working on steering the corporation in a new direction.

I dunno if corporate leadership has changed or not but it has been Conn-Selmer for quite a long time. 2003 is when the name changed from Selmer Inc to that. Then around 8 years before then it went from Selmer USA to Selmer Inc.
My interpretation of that name is a bit less rosy than yours.

IMHO they didn't do that because they were intent on bringing back some of the old quality associated with Conn, I think it was purely a marketing decision, "Conn" arguably still retained some brand recognition and possibly loyalty as a name, so Selmer Inc wanted to ride those coattails (if there were any coattails left).

I am not even saying Conn-Selmer makes BAD stuff (well, some of their stuff over the years has been pretty underwhelming, particularly the China-produced stuff...when they were contracting with Taiwan the student line saxes were significantly better, IMHO).

They are COMPLETELY OFF THE RADAR for anyone considering a Pro horn or "advanced intermediate" sorta horn, however...although they do market some models as that. But it is tumbleweeds and crickets on sax forums about those horns. I can remember just ONE owner in my 20 years of wasting time on these chat boards who had a Conn-Selmer sax as their GO TO axe, it was a Tenor, he liked it a lot, said that they get no attention but are quite good. So maybe they DO make a few upper-shelf models which are really competitive.

But I dunno how they sell 'em...I know of nobody who owns one besides that one guy (I think I read that on THIS forum, around 3 years ago or so). But maybe they have the ability to make a good one. But most of the ones out there, the China made ones, student and intermediate marketed lines....do not get positive feedback, really.

 

[JayeNM]

The sax's main barrier is its pricing point, but it was intended as a collector edition. As time progresses, with say a line based on this model in plain clear or tinted lacquer and with laser instead of hand engraving, be placed in a less expensive but still sturdy case, IMO, we may easily see it drop $1,500 - $2,000 to what most would expect.

Could happen....personally, they should have just made the finish 'normal" IMHO.... I think they have done the product NO favors whatsoever by going with THAT faux antique finish and the inappropriately contrasting (and proportionally clunky-looking) bellbrace.

Actually makes it LESS appealing, aesthetically. So it is choices like that which make folks wonder who exactly decided on these things, and why would'ja have done that....?

 

[thomsax]

This is where the danger comes in...you likely cannot identify a large or small bore sax, blindfold playtested, simply by tonal quality or blowing response....I posit....

Yes, but it can be useful to know what we mean when we say a dark, mellow, bright .... sax. If a player wants a big bore and the sound it produce then he/she needs a A.Sax .... .

Studies of musical instruments | Luleå tekniska universitet

As a part of our research in sound quality, we are running a project jointly with a saxophone manufacturer. The aim of the project is to devise methods for designing product sound. Since musical instruments are designed specifically to produce a desired sound, they are excellent examples to use t...

www.ltu.se

 

[Pete Thomas]

Yes, but it can be useful to know what we mean when we say a dark, mellow, bright .... sax. If a player wants a big bore and the sound it produce then he/she needs a A.Sax .... .

Studies of musical instruments | Luleå tekniska universitet

As a part of our research in sound quality, we are running a project jointly with a saxophone manufacturer. The aim of the project is to devise methods for designing product sound. Since musical instruments are designed specifically to produce a desired sound, they are excellent examples to use t...

www.ltu.se

Sadly the linked page only links to another page when you try to find out more, but that page links back to the first page.

 

[JayeNM]

Studies of musical instruments | Luleå tekniska universitet

As a part of our research in sound quality, we are running a project jointly with a saxophone manufacturer. The aim of the project is to devise methods for designing product sound. Since musical instruments are designed specifically to produce a desired sound, they are excellent examples to use t...

www.ltu.se

I appreciate the idea of the research (this page is dated 2023, so wondering what became of this ? Like Pete I am trying to find specific findings/conclusions, and cannot seem to navigate to them), however, is the terminology of 'dark' vs' 'bright' or 'spread' vs. 'focused' really THAT hard to grasp by a layman musician ?

I have always found that my ears are quite capable of discerning those aspects, even more so when I am playing the instrument in the case of sax....In my conversations over the years, I think 'most players get it'...general sonic attributes of what makes something bright vs. dark. Some do not, but I think most do.

It has been observed fairly often (and from recordings I have heard of them, I would concur) that A. Sax saxes sound almost brass-horn like in their tone, very warm, very smooth, with a rounded articulation rather that edgy or cutting as we think of most reed instruments today.

But I doubt all of that can be attributed solely to the bore specifications....

 

[wakyct]

But most of the ones out there, the China made ones, student and intermediate marketed lines....do not get positive feedback, really

I have no data to back this up (hey it's Sunday) but aren't the vast majority of horns sold to parents of middle and high schoolers? Are they leaving a lot of feedback on internet forums?

 

[Woodpad]

It has been observed fairly often (and from recordings I have heard of them, I would concur) that A. Sax saxes sound almost brass-horn like in their tone, very warm, very smooth, with a rounded articulation rather that edgy or cutting as we think of most reed instruments today.

But I doubt all of that can be attributed solely to the bore specifications....

Old (before 1900) mouthpieces have surprising large chambers and small openings. With strong reeds you have some back pressure, which make it possible to give the constant air flow necessary for a smooth sound.
As we play on mouthpieces with wider openings it is more difficult, but not impossible to do the same.

My experience is that on larger bore free blowing instruments it is possible to do a broader range of sounds, but a constant low airflow is not easy.

 

[LostCircuits]

I have no data to back this up (hey it's Sunday) but aren't the vast majority of horns sold to parents of middle and high schoolers? Are they leaving a lot of feedback on internet forums?

I don't know about internet feedback but the majority of "student horns" that I have sold were to middle and high schoolers or their parents after they played these Chinese instruments. And, to be sure, I don't do that as a business, but if I come across something worth fixing in a pawnshop for $50.- or less then I sometimes pick them up and do an overhaul and word has gotten around.

So these kids come, and I always ask them to bring their instrument for real time comparison, and every time it's been the same story: Mom (or Dad), can I please get this one, it's so much nicer than what I have...

And, yes, I try to do quality work but it's not really me as much as having a decent baseline to work with.

 

[Ghr9204]

aren't the vast majority of horns sold to parents of middle and high schoolers? Are they leaving a lot of feedback on internet forums?

The student models is IMO the bulk of sales. This is why I call them the "bread and butter". It is why I got a Yamaha YAS-61 back in the early 1970's as a Junior in high school on clearance. Parents bought scads of their student models.

Most of what I observe is feedback in the form of how their son or daughter or grandchild is performing, but not the make and model of the musical instrument they are using. "Here is Johnny on clarinet", "Suzie playing the piano", etc. They IMO don't get into the technical details like a musician might.

Maybe I missed something, but thus far this is my impressions.

 

[Woodpad]

Most of what I observe is feedback in the form of how their son or daughter or grandchild is performing, but not the make and model of the musical instrument they are using. "Here is Johnny on clarinet", "Suzie playing the piano", etc. They IMO don't get into the technical details like a musician might.

Maybe I missed something, but thus far this is my impressions.

This brought back a memory from 45 years ago. Some older violin players talked about children who wrecked violins by transporting them on bikes. One said that they could also learn to play the violin on instruments build from wooden cigar boxes. The parents wouldn't notice the difference.

Maybe the bundy ii and cheap asian saxophones are the equivalent of a cigar box violin.

 

[Ghr9204]

Maybe the bundy ii and cheap asian saxophones are the equivalent of a cigar box violin.

They are more than a cigar box. I was surprised to see the Cecellio Mendini being called an acceptable beginning student sax. A few websites listed them as suitable. I bought a used alto in new condition, which had the harder to obtain black nickel finish, gave it to a mid schooler who played trumpet but wanted to do reeds.

Yes, I suppose there are marginal no-name ones out there. The Venus alto saxophone was rated acceptable by Stephen Howard. I've got the Venus tenor and sop, they play decently, like an intermediate.

 

[PigSquealer]

I was surprised to see the Cecellio Mendini being called an acceptable beginning student sax.

All it takes is money. Pay google, Yelp or Amazombie enough and they’ll send your product / store to top of lists.
These top 10 are the best (because they pay us well).

Quality will always sell itself.

 

[Ghr9204]

All it takes is money. Pay google, Yelp or Amazombie enough and they’ll send your product / store to top of lists. These top 10 are the best (because they pay us well).

It was not sales sites by search engine. These were blogs about beginner student saxes.

A bit of food for thought. There were concerns over the primitive engraving. Could this be a Conn trademark? Just now, I found a sales listing for a Naked Lady alto:

CONN 1957 Alto Saxophone "NAKED LADY" Original Condition w/ Case | eBay CONN 1957 Alto Saxophone "NAKED LADY" Original Condition w/Case

Ebay photo.
Notice the uneveness of the CG CONN LTD lettering.

 

[jazzdoh]

is the terminology of 'dark' vs' 'bright' or 'spread' vs. 'focused' really THAT hard to grasp by a layman musician ?

This will be different depending on whose ears are listening, we all perceive sound differently.

 

[JayeNM]

This will be different depending on whose ears are listening, we all perceive sound differently.

The Perception (or Distinction, a better term) might be different, yes...but the loose Definition (or attributes) of Dark vs. Bright would not be, methinks.

IOW, I do not think any musician would characterize a sax, let's say, which is very 'trebly' and 'reedy' in tone as "Dark", right ?

Likewise a sax with a tonality that sounds like it had the 'bass' turned up, really lush sounding low harmonics, and is not very 'edgy' or articulated, eighth and sixteenth notes do not have a lot of 'bite' to them, as being a "Bright" sounding horn.

So I don't think the attributes of Bright vs. Dark would be all that different. There should be a pretty decent general understanding of what one vs. the other means, more what I was saying there.

But I do agree, people do not hear things the same and some folks who do not really have a semi-trained ear might not be able to hear much difference. But that doesn't mean there is none. It's more that there perception to distinguish isn't developed yet.

 

[JayeNM]

It was not sales sites by search engine. These were blogs about beginner student saxes.

A bit of food for thought. There were concerns over the primitive engraving. Could this be a Conn trademark? Just now, I found a sales listing for a Naked Lady alto:

CONN 1957 Alto Saxophone "NAKED LADY" Original Condition w/ Case | eBay CONN 1957 Alto Saxophone "NAKED LADY" Original Condition w/Case


Ebay photo.
Notice the uneveness of the CG CONN LTD lettering.

Good point, lol, I was gonna say that upon the initial pics of the new engraving being posted here.

It wasn't the 'rule' at Conn Elkhart, BUT indeed I have come across vintage Conn engravings which were not exactly fab, lol. And not just one or two, I mean I'd say, I dunno, maybe...15% or so (?)

(Great opportunity for Conn-Selmer to reply with "yes, indeed, you see, our highly-skilled craftsman were actually paying TRIBUTE to the variable quality of vintage Conn engravings !") 😵

 

[JayeNM]

All it takes is money. Pay google, Yelp or Amazombie enough and they’ll send your product / store to top of lists.
These top 10 are the best (because they pay us well).

Quality will always sell itself.

That IS all it takes, no longer any scruples in marketing. Anyone can see this, just type in "ten best beginner saxophones" or ten best student saxophones" or "ten best pro saxophones" and then cross reference the various "articles written by professionals or educators" as to what their list shows.

WE can see this because most of us have been around for a bit...but I pity the fools a decade from now when that discernment is buried in the ground or scattered in the oceans with its musicians of earlier generations who have passed on.
It will not take long for all of that remaining discernment to vanish....unless something changes on a global societal scale.