Saxophone beginners When to use the Bis key on saxophone

[Colin the Bear]

I thought Mordent was that plasticine character, Morph's brother.

Could be one of Superman's arch enemies too.

If you're feeling mordent, exercise and a good diet can help.

 

[Ivan]

If you're feeling mordent, exercise and a good diet can help.

Yes that would have been my best guess as to meaning

 

[SimonB64]

Mordent: a melodic ornament consisting of the rapid alternation of a note with a note one degree lower than it Also called ​

lower mordent[from German, from Italian mordente, from mordere to bite] Thanks Google.

 

[BigMartin]

Must only be Jazz players using the Bis key

Chris..

Yuu may have a point there. It's probably the most flexible if you haven't decided what comes after it. It's not hard to learn to roll your finger up for a B natural if you want one. Going the other way is easier on some of my horns than others (the latter ones have too big a gap between B and bis).

 

[Saxade]

I was self taught and the "bis" Bb was the only Bb I new... now after going to my tutor ... He says that is useful only when you are playing in a key where Bb is in the scale... but it is still taking me ages to stop playing the "bis" Bb... because in a detailed passage I go to what I know which is not the best result......

 

[kevgermany]

I've moved the posts on Teal's the Art of Saxophone PLaying to a new thread. Please continue that discussion there and continue to comment on the bis key here.

 

[saxmaster]

Come to think of it I really should spend more time familiarising myself with all these various alternatives another cavernous hole in my knowledge has appeared out of nowhere I really wish you beginners would stop doing this

Hey I'm no beginner! I'm a professional! You just haven't heard of me yet 😀
Yesterday I had a concert and I used the bis key when I started seeing Bb all over the place. It was a bit easier, but I don't think I should've tried something I'd never done before on the night of my school's FIRST EVER BAND CONCERT. Oh well at least I didn't miss a pesky accidental 🙂

 

[sushidushi]

I didn't miss a pesky accidental 🙂

That's good when trying it out for the first time! 🙂

 

[Tenor Viol]

The advice of my tutor to me is Bis for Bb when it's in the key signature and use long Bb (L1 R1) for chromatic passages (e.g. A A# B). Side Bb is also an option depending on context.

 

[Ivan]

The advice of my tutor to me is Bis for Bb when it's in the key signature and use long Bb (L1 R1) for chromatic passages (e.g. A A# B). Side Bb is also an option depending on context.

The above advice fits absolutely with what I find easiest

 

[Profusia]

The advice of my tutor to me is Bis for Bb when it's in the key signature and use long Bb (L1 R1) for chromatic passages (e.g. A A# B).

My tutor had told me the same and encouraged me to use it. However, as a beginner I'm finding it hard to make that move as it feels unnatural to me. Difficult to know whether to persevere and commit to it (when in a Key where B is normally flatted) or hang on with side Bb for the time being. Of course I know the right answer is to get comfortable with all fingerings right from the off - I just don't want to do it. It reminds me of when, after years of swimming front crawl breathing to only one side, I finally decided to force my self to learn to breath bilaterally. The effort was immense and very frustrating, and although even now (years later) I still don't have it totally perfected and prefer my old side as soon as I get tired, the benefits are clear and I know I should have done it years earlier. So there's my lesson I guess.

 

[kevgermany]

whsat helps is playing scales, practising the different figerings, so you should be able to play F major using the different Bb fingerings at will. Once you get over that extend it to the other flat keys, should be easier.

 

[Profusia]

whsat helps is playing scales, practising the different figerings, so you should be able to play F major using the different Bb fingerings at will. Once you get over that extend it to the other flat keys, should be easier.

Good tip, thanks Kev. I really should have know that grrrr

 

[Ivan]

Of course I know the right answer is to get comfortable with all fingerings right from the off - I just don't want to do it

Exactly how I used to feel... it was side key or nothing

Now though the side key is only a casual acquaintance

 

[Colin the Bear]

All very well for you nimble fingered people but I have gorilla hands with banana fingers some of which are battered and scarred. No way for me to use Bis and too late to change now. Side and split for me.

 

[jbtsax]

How I play Bb depends on notes before and after, some finger movements feel easier than others.

Targa has nailed it IMO. I would only add that some finger movements are more efficient and practical than others.

I have always taught that 1-2 + side is the "regular" fingering for Bb or if you will, the "default" fingering. It is the most practical fingering when Bb is preceded by A or Ab and followed by C or Cb (B). This makes it the smoothest fingering in the F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, and Cb major scales. It is also the smoothest fingering in the chromatic scale.

The 1 - 4 fingering is the most practical when Bb goes to F or D or from F or D unless followed by C.

The 1 - 5 fingering is the most practical when A# goes to F# or from F# unless followed by C.

The Bis is the most practical when Bb follows a G or A unless the Bb itself is followed C or B natural.

The "unless followed by C" business is all about avoiding what I call the "flip-flop" ---exchanging the first and second fingers. This is also true on the right hand playing F to F#. The fork fingering for F# is used to prevent the "flip-flop" on that hand.

I know that this sounds very "pedantic". That's because it is. I have taught this stuff for years and have found that choosing the best fingering is really nothing more than just using "common sense". In slower music just about any fingering---regular or alternate will work. It is at the faster tempos and shorter note values, that the smoothest finger combination can make all the difference.

An easy way to test one fingering against another is to play that note as part of a trill. First with the note that precedes it, and then with the note that follows. If anyone likes sliding the first finger on an off the bis key, try doing a Bb - B trill using that method and you will see what I mean.

 

[Ivan]

All very well for you nimble fingered people but I have gorilla hands with banana fingers some of which are battered and scarred. No way for me to use Bis and too late to change now. Side and split for me.

No offence Colin but the bigger your fingers the more likely you are to cover the Bis key effectively I'd have thought!

 

[saxmaster]

OP here.
I got a new piece of music a few days ago, Undertow by John Mackey, and there's some 16th note runs that have Bb in them. It's definitely much easier to play the Bis key than fumble around the side key and miss the other notes directly after the Bb.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I think my whole career on saxophone could be summed up by fumbling around for the next note.

 

[Rico Vandoren]

Yuu may have a point there. It's probably the most flexible if you haven't decided what comes after it. It's not hard to learn to roll your finger up for a B natural if you want one. Going the other way is easier on some of my horns than others (the latter ones have too big a gap between B and bis).

My teacher puts my left hand on the desk and hits it with a large lump hammer if I do this. So I don't.