Saxophones What year did bell keys move from left side to the right side

[JayeNM]

This I would be interested in as it has been a mystery to me, would make a good separate thread. I have two of their instruments, an older alto sax and an newer low-A bari. Both play extremely well, like professional models. The alto is on par with my old Yamaha YAS-61. I suspect the possibility of KHS roots but information is obscure. The brand seemed to slowly evaporate after 2014 with the debutting of the Allora brand. I don't know if they were by the same manufacturer.

Antiguas I have never held in my hands. They are still around and contemporary, they seem to concentrate on what they call their 'pro' offerings...Pro-One and Powerbell.

Alloras I have experience with. There ARE elements which seem Taiwanese in details.
I think the companies are unrelated, I thought Allora sort of evolved out of WWBW's store-brand initially (?) That is what git their foot in the market.

I don't believe Antiguas ever had a contract with a particular retailer ?

I have for sale an Allora student alto, I accidentally 'won' it on eBay....it appears to be what they now call a 250, but has no model designation. The tonality isn't particularly great, too bright for my taste, but the quality and precision of build , intonation and ergos are really quite respectable. It isn't flimsy either, the horn has some heft to it.

I have spoken before about their so called 'intermediate' lines - Paris and Vienna - and I am actually impressed by them.

I used to (mentally) lump Allora in with Cecilio and Mendini and Venus, not very fair of me since I had never held one...but in the three examples I have had on my bench, I was sorta shocked at how respectable they are.

I think Antigua suffers the same reputation, and I am guilty of doing that as well. I'd be interested in actually trying one sometime. I know of nobody, personally or any client, who has one or has ever owned one....

 

[ghostler]

Antiguas I have never held in my hands. They are still around and contemporary, they seem to concentrate on what they call their 'pro' offerings...Pro-One and Powerbell.

Quinn The Eskimo music store in the Seattle, Washington area was selling these on clearance about the time I bought my A.W. BS3220 in Feb 2021. One could get a Powerbell alto for under $1,200.

But, you are correct they are still in business, because apparently sales shifted from US to Europe. I just checked their website:

News – Antigua Winds

antiguawinds.com

They have a trade show starting tomorrow in Stuttgart, Germany:

BRAWO 2025​

November 21-23, 2025
MESSE STUTTGART
HALLE 2, 2C10

They are still offered in US, but appears by special order. They have a store front on Amazon for the Power Bell altos and tenors. No longer do they show student and intermediate saxes on their website.

I got that bari on clearance for $2,371 shipping and taxes included, has an unbelievable high quality luggage grade case with wheels. Musician's Friend listed the sax in 2014 for $4,400. Considering inflation, today's cost would be $6,062.17.

Page 108 of the Jan. 2014 issue of the Downbeat magazine, Jazz School Toolshed section had a very possitive review of this sax. Various places I have played it, people have positive comments about it.

Alloras I have experience with. There ARE elements which seem Taiwanese in details. I think the companies are unrelated, I thought Allora sort of evolved out of WWBW's store-brand initially (?) That is what git their foot in the market.

Thus far from what I've heard, Alloras hail from Taiwan. The Guitar Center, owner of its stores, WWBW, Musician's Friend and Music Arts all carry them. I don't know about other companies.

I don't believe Antiguas ever had a contract with a particular retailer ?

A decade ago they were carried by it seems, just about everyone like Jupiter, but not specifically by as a chain brand.

I have for sale an Allora student alto, I accidentally 'won' it on eBay....it appears to be what they now call a 250, but has no model designation. The tonality isn't particularly great, too bright for my taste, but the quality and precision of build , intonation and ergos are really quite respectable. It isn't flimsy either, the horn has some heft to it.

My Venus tenor is along those lines. Its timbre is acceptable, I can make it sing. However, my Jupiter Vito 7133T outdoes it, has a really nice, impressive subtone in the lower register, now my fav.

I have spoken before about their so called 'intermediate' lines - Paris and Vienna - and I am actually impressed by them. I used to (mentally) lump Allora in with Cecilio and Mendini and Venus, not very fair of me since I had never held one...but in the three examples I have had on my bench, I was sorta shocked at how respectable they are.

In this forum, it has been spoken of other brands not available in US but in UK and EU of the budget category, which are quite respectable players. It goes to show that personal hands on oft tell a different story, most positive.

I think Antigua suffers the same reputation, and I am guilty of doing that as well. I'd be interested in actually trying one sometime. I know of nobody, personally or any client, who has one or has ever owned one....

It is too bad that we both are at least a day's drive away.

 

[JayeNM]

They are still offered in US, but appears by special order. They have a store front on Amazon for the Power Bell altos and tenors. No longer do they show student and intermediate saxes on their website.

Hmmm...interesting decision, no longer a N.Amer headquarters/branch....

 

[PigSquealer]

So, did Yamaha have some in house designs and production with left side keys (and some of that got transferred to the left side Vito shown above), then bought Nikkan with their right side keys and made - at least the bell key part - the foundation of the YAS-1, YTS-1, etc.?

Now we're doing the "trawling through tenuous evidence thing to find answers for questions no one's actually interested in" thing for Yamaha, too! What's next, the history of Antigua Winds models?

I have no clue. I haven’t studied the R&D timeline of Yamaha saxes. The history of Japanese saxophones and origins are closely related. Beginning with Mr. Sentaro Egawa’s work around 1930-1934. An exact copy of a Conn 6M. Made by him and marked “Japan Wind Instrument Co. Ltd.”.

 

[helen]

I have no clue. I haven’t studied the R&D timeline of Yamaha saxes. The history of Japanese saxophones and origins are closely related. Beginning with Mr. Sentaro Egawa’s work around 1930-1934. An exact copy of a Conn 6M. Made by him and marked “Japan Wind Instrument Co. Ltd.”.

Funny I should come across this thread today.

Just this a.m. I published my first ever article about a Japanese-made Nikkan alto, and the history of what you're talking about.

As I explain at the end of the article, the reason I wrote about the Nikkan alto is that I am going to be republishing Pete Hales' original materials on Yani's history. It's a pictorial guide to the company's saxophones back to their start.

Part of the republishing will require me to update broken links, and find new images. That's why I wanted to get a bit of the company's back story before I began with Pete's material.

 

[PigSquealer]

Funny I should come across this thread today.

Just this a.m. I published my first ever article about a Japanese-made Nikkan alto, and the history of what you're talking about.

As I explain at the end of the article, the reason I wrote about the Nikkan alto is that I am going to be republishing Pete Hales' original materials on Yani's history. It's a pictorial guide to the company's saxophones back to their start.

Part of the republishing will require me to update broken links, and find new images. That's why I wanted to get a bit of the company's back story before I began with Pete's material.

I said I hadn’t studied the R&D timeline of Yamaha. I have studied Mr Egawa. I respectfully disagree with the comments made during Mr Metcalf’s interview. Yes, this is what was said and stated. The public story. There’s information not being stated publicly for some reason. Yamaha completely denies any connection. You won’t find any museum, publication or historian in Japan but one who’s willing to even talk. Yamaha Corporate museum refuses to acknowledge. Both here in LA and Japan.
See my Mr Egawa posts & links on the other place.
The alto I have most likely belonged to “Sleepy”. On a long-shot it was gifted to a certain sailor who lived by Port of LA. I bought it from the sailors granddaughter.

The above is engraved “Ltd”.

“Japan Wind Instruments, Inc. was founded by military bronze craftsman Sentaro Egawa. Initially, Egawa opened a small wind instrument repair shop in 1892. In 1902, he founded Japan Wind Instrument Manufacturing Co., Ltd., which produced instruments such as cornets and trumpets. In 1937, the company was renamed Japan Wind Instruments, Inc.”

 

[ghostler]

The public story. There’s information not being stated publicly for some reason. .... The above is engraved “Ltd”.

I find that your Japan made sax appears to be a direct copy of the Conn "Naked Lady".

In the model aircraft forums, once in a while there are bits and pieces revealed about Japan with copies of US model aircraft engines prior to 1960's sold in Japan but little known outside of Japan. These were marketed only in Japan. The language is a barrier. They were never exported outside Japan. A few who have been in Japan purchased these and brought them back to the States, why we know about them. I guess they were "out of sight, out of mind".

Also, I recall periods where US was closed to immigration from Japan prior to WW2, and this was before Japan was considered a threat to US. It is interesting that there are those in various places in Mexico, Central and South America who have Japanese ancestry because of this.

I almost bought a Conn "Naked Lady" alto recently. My GAS review prevented me.

 

[skeller047]

I almost bought a Conn "Naked Lady" alto recently. My GAS review prevented me.

This just means that while you have been exposed to GAS, you didn’t actually get infected. For those on the sidelines, be careful, because there is no vaccine for the disease.

 

[PigSquealer]

I find that your Japan made sax appears to be a direct copy of the Conn "Naked Lady".

The Conn Artist 6M or 10M, AKA “Naked Lady” didn’t start until 1934 +/- @ SN# 260,000.
The one I compared to in pictures is a SN# 254xxx vin. A “Transitional” with a very early Artist engraving. Pivoting RH thumb rest.
Largely viewed as discontinued by late1933 or early 1934.
My studies find that the Japanese didn’t copy anything in current model production. It was loosely considered disrespectful. My interpretation of a translation.
My example was made after 1933 and before 1937. No serial number.
Parts are interchangeable to a 6M.
It’s gold plated.

 

[PigSquealer]

I almost bought a Conn "Naked Lady" alto recently. My GAS review prevented me.

Too bad you didn’t. You would have likely sold off your other altos.

 

[ghostler]

Too bad you didn’t. You would have likely sold off your other altos.

I probably would not have. I have a Model 37 Beaugnier Vito Alto, 1952 basis but serial# indicates a later production, else 100% identical. With a wider bore it's tone is unbelievable plus extremely clean cosmetically, low mileage. The French knew what they were doing.

 

[PigSquealer]

I probably would not have. I have a Model 37 Beaugnier Vito Alto, 1952 basis but serial# indicates a later production, else 100% identical. With a wider bore it's tone is unbelievable plus extremely clean cosmetically, low mileage. The French knew what they were doing.

IMHO until you have played a couple hundred+ in premium condition you haven’t experienced squat. I have no doubt you like the Vito you currently enjoy, but there are many more to explore. It’s a life changing experience when you find “The One”. That being a sax and mouthpiece in combination. If you didn’t get the chance to play the 6M. Well that’s shorting yourself an opportunity of experience of what’s out there. I by no means am a top player, but I cannot deny my experience of exploring many. The “one” was totally unexpected. Honestly it set me back on my heals. Words cannot express the feeling. All I can say is that my stars aligned that day.

 

[ghostler]

It’s a life changing experience when you find “The One”. That being a sax and mouthpiece in combination.

Er no, I don't fully CONNcur. It is like I said previously:

POINT: If you buy that $7K Conn, you will sound like Paul Desmond with this sax.
REPLY: No, I will sound like me.
POINT: If you buy that Berg pre-Larson metal mouthpiece replica for $1,000 plus that sax, you could sound like David Liebman.
REPLY: No, I will sound like me.

The sax is a tool. The performance is in the artist.

 

[Woodpad]

IMHO until you have played a couple hundred+ in premium condition you haven’t experienced squat.

But every instrument played helps to define you what premium quality is, it is a moving fence.

 

[Dr G]

Er no, I don't fully CONNcur. It is like I said previously:

POINT: If you buy that $7K Conn, you will sound like Paul Desmond with this sax.
REPLY: No, I will sound like me.
POINT: If you buy that Berg pre-Larson metal mouthpiece replica for $1,000 plus that sax, you could sound like David Liebman.
REPLY: No, I will sound like me.

The sax is a tool. The performance is in the artist.

A good craftsman will make the best use of good tools.

Ever use a good screwdriver? Or a high quality wrench?

Harbor Freight has its place. There’s one just a few miles from my house. I took him there for an opportunity to compare their tools to the ones in my rollaway. He could tell the difference with ease.

I also took him to William-Sonoma to shop chef knives. It was interesting to see his preferences there - there were some really expensive knives that he didn’t like, and he could notice the differences beyond the price tag.

I prefer to use good tools that are a good match to my preferences. They let me perform better.

 

[ghostler]

But every instrument played helps to define you what premium quality is, it is a moving fence.

You make a valid point. It reminds me of and I have mentioned this before. Back in the 1980's, in the band storage room I found an old King low Bb bari sax. It seemed OK but needed a new pad or two, missing cork bumpers replaced. I took the band's instrument kit home and went to work.

Next rehearsal a month later, I had it repaired, had it assigned to me. This was during the computer bulletin board days, Internet hadn't taken off yet. AFAIK, the King had no fancy engravings. It was a little rustic looking due to age, but it produced a beautiful tone for concert band and stage band.

I used it a couple years. Then the band decided to receive a newer used Martin bari from the 62nd Army Band, Sierra Vista, Arizona. The King was withdrawn from our inventory. The Martin was newer and prettier. I played it a little but amazingly, I preferred the King as being the better sax. (Why would they give up an otherwise good instrument?)

Over time I have learned that the underdog sometimes is the better instrument over the "community preferred market leader".

 

[Woodpad]

You make a valid point. It reminds me of and I have mentioned this before. Back in the 1980's, in the band storage room I found an old King low Bb bari sax. It seemed OK but needed a new pad or two, missing cork bumpers replaced. I took the band's instrument kit home and went to work.

Next rehearsal a month later, I had it repaired, had it assigned to me. This was during the computer bulletin board days, Internet hadn't taken off yet. AFAIK, the King had no fancy engravings. It was a little rustic looking due to age, but it produced a beautiful tone for concert band and stage band.

I used it a couple years. Then the band decided to receive a newer used Martin bari from the 62nd Army Band, Sierra Vista, Arizona. The King was withdrawn from our inventory. The Martin was newer and prettier. I played it a little but amazingly, I preferred the King as being the better sax. (Why would they give up an otherwise good instrument?)

Over time I have learned that the underdog sometimes is the better instrument over the "community preferred market leader".

I play a King zephyr bari as it gives a better sound than my Conn bari. 30 years ago someone called it a resurectophone, so looks are not everything. To stay on topic it is a clapper and King made this model until the end. They stopped there right bell bari earlier.
A bari is a difficult instrument to get perfect. The King tone holes makes it easier to get good closing pads. As the tone holes on a Martin are also good, it is possible that the King had the better set up when you compared them.

 

[PigSquealer]

Er no, I don't fully CONNcur. It is like I said previously:

POINT: If you buy that $7K Conn, you will sound like Paul Desmond with this sax.
REPLY: No, I will sound like me.
POINT: If you buy that Berg pre-Larson metal mouthpiece replica for $1,000 plus that sax, you could sound like David Liebman.
REPLY: No, I will sound like me.

The sax is a tool. The performance is in the artist.

For $100 including the original Steve Broadus mouthpiece…I sound like me. I don’t want to sound like anyone else. You’re viewing “The One” as trying to hit a given artists style or sound and a big dollar sign to achieve this. Nope, “The One” plays like silk. Complete ease of playing. Full control to do anything you want to.

 

[ghostler]

The one I was talking about was a couple days ago and it went for more. It didn't look as clean as that one. But for now, I am GAS'd out.

 

[helen]

I said I hadn’t studied the R&D timeline of Yamaha. I have studied Mr Egawa. I respectfully disagree with the comments made during Mr Metcalf’s interview. Yes, this is what was said and stated. The public story. There’s information not being stated publicly for some reason. Yamaha completely denies any connection. You won’t find any museum, publication or historian in Japan but one who’s willing to even talk. Yamaha Corporate museum refuses to acknowledge. Both here in LA and Japan.
See my Mr Egawa posts & links on the other place.
The alto I have most likely belonged to “Happy”. On a long-shot it was gifted to a certain sailor who lived by Port of LA. I bought it from the sailors granddaughter.
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The above is engraved “Ltd”.

“Japan Wind Instruments, Inc. was founded by military bronze craftsman Sentaro Egawa. Initially, Egawa opened a small wind instrument repair shop in 1892. In 1902, he founded Japan Wind Instrument Manufacturing Co., Ltd., which produced instruments such as cornets and trumpets. In 1937, the company was renamed Japan Wind Instruments, Inc.”

The horn in you show has RTH. Interesting. Do you have the neck? Does it have a microtuner?

May I ask: Where did you get the quote from your last paragraph? It looks vaguely familiar, but now I'm not sure anymore if I actually read it somewhere, and lost it before completing my timelines, or if I couldn't verify it without documentation secondary.

As I said in my article, the tale of the 2 companies gets very murky, and varies depending on the source. Sigh...