Saxophones What year did bell keys move from left side to the right side

[turf3]

As several replies already noted...some never did, right ?

Conn 16M's and 10M's always had left side keys....King Zeph baritones had split bell keys all the way until the very end (literally mid 1980's-still had split keys), I sorta LOVE that.

A better question might be (and I have no clue as to the answer) : what was the FIRST sax model to have right-side bellkeys ? That might be easier to sleuth out, actually. Maybe @helen knows this ?

It MIGHT be the Conn baritone! Someone up above notes their Conn from 1930 (???) has right side keys. But - activated by linkage. It's really kind of a trivial job on a horn with split action to make the low B also on the right side with a linkage. As far as I know the Balanced Action Selmers were the first to run the rods down the front of the horn and change the direction of swing of the LH little finger keys to put the bell keys on the right with direct action.

 

[LostCircuits]

The earliest Conn had LH bell keys but they switched to split bells around 1895 (ish)

 

[helen]

A better question might be (and I have no clue as to the answer) : what was the FIRST sax model to have right-side bellkeys ? That might be easier to sleuth out, actually. Maybe @helen knows this ?

Mmm... That is indeed a better question.

Off the top of my head I am guessing it was a European one--but I might be off. Let me take a deeper dive into what I have in our resources and see what can dig up. I see an excellent article though Jaye. Thanks!

BTW, speaking of horns that never did switch over, Martin is another one that didn't. Even the Committee III was left-sided.

 

[helen]

This might not be the first, but here is one from the 1930s from a Hess catalogue. The manufacturer would have been German.

14 |

 

[thomsax]

BTW, speaking of horns that never did switch over, Martin is another one that didn't. Even the Committee III was left-sided.

Even "The Martin Magna Baritone" to low A had bell keys on left side. Low A key is activated by right- or left hand thumbs. Maybe the left bell keys made it easier for this solution?

 

[JayeNM]

This might not be the first, but here is one from the 1930s from a Hess catalogue. The manufacturer would have been German.

14 |

OK so there's a date. So let's look for an earlier RH bellkey competitor.....going to @turf3 's earlier comment, when did the first 12M appear ?
Does this Hess predate those 12M's ?

 

[rhysonsax]

I don't believe that my New Wonder transitional 12M is likely to be the earliest, but its serial number of 239xxx dates it to the year 1930 according to the serial number chart at Saxpics.com Before that came the New Wonder Series II (which ran up to 237000 also in 1930) and it had one bell key on each side.

Rhys

 

[turf3]

I don't believe that my New Wonder transitional 12M is likely to be the earliest, but its serial number of 239xxx dates it to the year 1930 according to the serial number chart at Saxpics.com Before that came the New Wonder Series II (which ran up to 237000 also in 1930) and it had one bell key on each side.

Rhys

So it seems that we have a candidate for the earliest make and model with right side bell keys - actuated, however, by linkage - which is a trivial design change. I am unaware of any saxophone before the Selmer Balanced Action with direct action right side bell keys (1935-36).

 

[Punchysax]

Lots of other horns from the 70s and 80s had left hand bell keys - Conn, King (Cleveland), Bundy, Evette, etc. So it's never really been a case of everybody switching. More like some makers moved them, some followed suit, others didn't. I suspect right left hand keys are mechanically simpler, hence cheaper.

@Punchysax, what's the aim here, to find a the most recent Borgani (alto, tenor, bari?) that still has left hand bell keys? Is there a reason you prefer one versus the other (looks, ease of playing)?

Hi just see you reply trying to work out the year , my baritone is apparently a Borgani stencil , bell keys on left and 5 thousand range serial number so quite early I assume.

 

[turf3]

Good breakdown...but believe it or not, the FIRST Yamaha-made Vito Tenors, had left-side bellkeys. Estimated to be sometime in mid 70's because I have known a couple players who purchased their new then. I for a long time thought these were just leftover bodies from the Vito AZ factory (Art Best) Nogales that Yama just inherited and outfitted some keywork to, but then I discovered the upper stack of one of these is exactly the same design as the stack of the YTS 21's. And they do not fit late Conn models made there or in 60's/70's. An oddity more than anything ele, but I found it interesting that Yama actually made a LH bellkey model for a bit. Horns like this (engraved Vito):
View attachment 31290

To your knowledge were Yamaha making right side key tenors at the same time, under other names (including their own)?

 

[JayeNM]

Good question ! These left side bellkey Vito Yamas appear to be from mid -70's, again just having known a couple of Tenor players who bought them brand new, then. So they were still being marketed in mid 70's.

A bit of extrapolation here would support the date zone...Vito's relationship with Beaugnier ended when the latter went under in around '75-76 I believe, so that would have been the time Vito needed a new subcontractor (at least for Tenors).

According to two minutes of websearching, the YTS-1 and YTS-21 predate the mid 70's by a few years ('69-70), which is really interesting, actually....because it means that Yamaha used the same stack key design on Tenors with both left and right side bell keys, seemingly concurrently in production....(as I noted elsewhere the stack keys of these left-bellkey Vitos and those of a conventional YTS-21 are the same key design and post placements).

So my previous statement was sorta wrong....these Vitos may have (at most) been the first Yamahas on American soil, but Yama seems to have made right-side bellkey horns predating these....

https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/yamaha-model-history.120105/

and this:

 

[turf3]

Do you know if the very early Yamahas with right side bell keys had direct action on those keys, or linkage? If they were making direct action left side and direct action right side horns simultaneously, that probably means different lower stacks as well, at least the upper end - because the direction of table key pivot is opposite, and that affects the G# hold-down, as well as just fitting all the bits into place.

 

[JayeNM]

Good point, I dunno. I think if the 21 predates the Vito, there is your answer, just look at a 21 and see.

I know the lower stack D, E, F, and the upper stack everything (well, C, B, A, Bis and G) was interchangeable between the two because I once bought a whole set of 21 keys to use on a left-Vito and they fit well, minimal swedging or shaving needed....but cannot say regarding lower stack F and G# (if it was part of lower stack at all, cannot remember)

 

[turf3]

I think a YTS-21 is direct action, right side keys, but I can't swear to it.

It seems pretty weird that Yamaha may have been designing a new left side bell key horn as late as the early 1970s.

 

[ghostler]

It seems pretty weird that Yamaha may have been designing a new left side bell key horn as late as the early 1970s.

On other Japanese exported items, I have learned through time that some models for example in automobiles and hobbyist model aircraft engines of the "more primative" earlier types were for local market consumption only.

Is it possible that Yamaha's "more primative" left bell key saxes were initiated earlier and limited to sales for Japanese and other musicians in the Orient? And thus explains its brief "experimental" exportation history?

(I remember the early short lived 1970's Honda N600 budget export automobile prior to debutting the better loved hatchback Accord that kicked off US Honda auto sales. I had the short lived 1967 Datsun Bluebird 4 door export sedan that looked like something birthed from the 1950's. It had metric threaded bolts with SAE wrench heads. Broke a bolt and replaced it with a metric threaded metric head bolt.)

And to garner greater west export sales, focused on right bell key saxes that then was becoming more dominantly prevalent?

 

[PigSquealer]

@turf3 @JayeNM look up Nikkan saxophone. Yamaha bought Nikkan around 1970. What I’m seeing on Nikkan is all RHB keys and direct. No linkage.

 

[turf3]

@turf3 @JayeNM look up Nikkan saxophone. Yamaha bought Nikkan around 1970. What I’m seeing on Nikkan is all RHB keys and direct. No linkage.

So, did Yamaha have some in house designs and production with left side keys (and some of that got transferred to the left side Vito shown above), then bought Nikkan with their right side keys and made - at least the bell key part - the foundation of the YAS-1, YTS-1, etc.?

Now we're doing the "trawling through tenuous evidence thing to find answers for questions no one's actually interested in" thing for Yamaha, too! What's next, the history of Antigua Winds models?

 

[JayeNM]

Now we're doing the "trawling through tenuous evidence thing to find answers for questions no one's actually interested in" thing for Yamaha, too! What's next, the history of Antigua Winds models?

I have always been mildly interested, actually, just because the post-Kenosha/Beaugnier Vitos have elements which really SEEMED to be held over from the European/American design...so I was surprised as heck when I discovered the stack keys were interchangeable with a 21.

Their ALTOS of that same period were also sorta compelling, here's one I have discussed before...it just doesn't seem completely Japan in details to me....

Saxophones - Interesting Odd Bird Vito-Yamaha Alto....

I picked this up off of eFlay a few weeks ago. Strange bird, at least to mine eyes here across the pond. Initially, given the keyguards I speculated it might be a hybrid Vito Kenosha-Vito Japan horn.....but upon receiving her and pulling her apart, this is a straight up YAS 21 in every way...

cafesaxophone.com

 

[ghostler]

Now we're doing the "trawling through tenuous evidence thing to find answers for questions no one's actually interested in" thing for Yamaha, too!

One of the barriers to a full history is the Japanese language. For example, Enya made model aircraft engines from I think the late 1940's on. In the 1960's, Model Rectifier Corp. (MRC) had exclusive rights to import these into US for the western world. However, there were a series of engines that were not part of this export. They were available in the Orient (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore and I think possibly Australia and New Zealand.) These were their line of smaller A and Half-A engines of .049 to .08 cubic inch displacement.

A member of the Cox Engine Forum would travel to Japan on behalf of his employer several times a year. Over the years he bought these oddities, would discuss them in the forum. None of the US hobby stores sold them. They are good engines. I guess that the powers to be felt that these would not compete well with Cox, who made engines in half-A and A sizes. Instructions and literature were in Japanese, not English.

Back to your point. Rather than trawling, someone who has lived or traveled regularly to Japan connected with the music industry, who knows the language would be the best person to pipe in. There are things made abroad that never make it to western shores, for one reason or another.

What's next, the history of Antigua Winds models?

This I would be interested in as it has been a mystery to me, would make a good separate thread. I have two of their instruments, an older alto sax and an newer low-A bari. Both play extremely well, like professional models. The alto is on par with my old Yamaha YAS-61. I suspect the possibility of KHS roots but information is obscure. The brand seemed to slowly evaporate after 2014 with the debutting of the Allora brand. I don't know if they were by the same manufacturer.

Also, the Venus brand is a bit of a mystery. I always thought they were made in China, both, my sop and tenor have no country of origin on them. Recently it was suggested they came from Taiwan. The brand seemed to fade away about the same time Antigua Winds faded away. Are they related? I don't know. However, they also play extremely well for budget saxes, like an intermediate. Stephen Howard's write up on the Venus alto is positive.

 

[JayeNM]

One of the barriers to a full history is the Japanese language.

Back to your point. Rather than trauling, someone who has lived or traveled regularly to Japan connected with the music industry, who knows the language would be the best person to pipe in. There are things made abroad that never make it to western shores, for one reason or another.

Is it also cultural, though ? I mean, for both Yama and Yani, it really took the sax community a decade or more to actually piece together a quasi-useful serial list which can get one at least close to date of mfr...the companies seemed not very interested in providing/publishing this info...while it was commonly available info for pre-1980 major manufacturers.