Saxophones What year did bell keys move from left side to the right side

[Punchysax]

Hi,
Was wondering what year roughly did the bell keys get moved from the left hand side to the right hand side of the sax
Thank you

 

[lydian]

I don't know for certain, but seems like spilt bell keys started appearing around 1900 with early Conn and Buescher models, and both bell keys on the right in the 1930s with horns like the Selmer BA in 1936.

 

[turf3]

It depends totally on the make and sometimes on the model. A brief rundown, exact years not warranted accurate.

Selmer: both on left side till Balanced Action approx. 1936, then direct action on right side.

Conn: the very oldest ones were direct action on left, then with Wonder model(????) around 1915 (????) they went to low B direct action on left, low Bb by linkage on right. With the introduction of the "Artist" models around 1935 or so, the tenors went to both keys direct action on left, the baritone (and a bit later, the bass) went to both keys by linkage on right. This stayed as long as the actual Conn design horns were made; when UNI-designed horns came in, the details started changing accorrding to what design the horn was based on (some are Keilwerth genes, some are Beaugnier, some may be other things).

King: split action from Voll-True on (I don't know about before that); Zephyr alto and tenor (~1935?) went to both keys on right by linkage; Zephyr baritone stayed split action till the very end of production (1980??). Super 20 was introduced with both keys on right by linkage (1940?), but later generations (1950?) went to both keys on right with direct action.

Buescher: True-Tone split action from pretty early on; Aristocrat moved to both keys on left by direct action (but I think early Aristocrats were split action (???) so around 1930 (???) Buescher 400 went to direct action and toneholes on the back of the bell (the only make/model I've ever seen). During the period roughly 1958 to the end, there was a dizzying array of Buescher models, some called "400" with left side TH, some called "aristocrat" with back of bell TH, and Selmer USA and Bundy models with a bunch of different designs. The Bundy II is reputed to be a True-Tone acoustic design, but it has direct action right side bell keys - introduced when? mid 1960s?

Martin: Earliest ones i"ve seen were split action, but went to both keys left side direct action, with the "Committee" name ("Handcraft Committee", around 1935??) and stayed that way till the bitter end.

I believe Yamaha saxophones way back have been with both bell keys on the right and direct action. Maybe the earliest ones, which I BELIEVE (???) were Conn copies, were left side?

 

[rhysonsax]

My 1930-31 Conn Crossbar baritone has both bell keys on the right (from the player's viewpoint). That was earlier than Conn altos and tenors and before the Selmer BA. I wonder whether that was done for mechanical reasons (e.g. leverage from the LH pinky to the two heaviest keys) or acoustic reasons.

Rhys

 

[thomsax]

The first Martin with bell keys to the left was Martin Handcraft Imperial c 1933. Alto, tenor and baritone had the bellkeys to the left. before that split bell keys.

King Musical Instrument, "King" made and sold the King Zephyr baritone as late as 1983. The King Super 20 baritone was out of production by then.

 

[jonf]

As stated, it varies enormously. My first sax, a Buescher Aristocrat from the 1970s, had the bell keys on the left.

 

[thomsax]

UMI had new baris made in the late 90's, Conn Artist 13M (low A) and Conn Artist 14M (low Bb) with the bell keys to the right. Both models were based on Conn 11M and 12M. King Model 682 Eb baritone (low A) and King Model 680 Eb baritone were the siblings.

 

[ghostler]

My Model 37 Le Blanc Beaugnier Vito alto and low Bb bari of the early 1950's have the bell keys on the left side. There are hints that although the Duke Model came out around 1956 where the bell keys were moved to the right, that Beaugnier may have continued production of at least the alto into possibly the early 1960's. The original Selmer Bundy's of the 1960's made by Buescher had the bell keys on the left. The Bundy II's have them on the right. This old Conn 10M has them on the left:

From Vintage Original Lacquer C.G. Conn 10M Naked Lady Tenor Saxophone, Serial #316412 | Saxquest Saxophone Shop | Saxquest

Even with the bell keys on the left, they play fine. I haven't done any measurements, but my impressions are with the keys on the left, the key from the rod hinge to the pad cup is longer. By locating them on the right shortened the distance from rod hinge to pad cup, giving better mechanical advantage.

If one finds an old used sax with keys on the left and tries it, plays fine, I wouldn't let the keys on the left bother me if the price was right and I am in the market for another sax.

 

[Punchysax]

Any ideas on Borgani ??

 

[Punchysax]

It depends totally on the make and sometimes on the model. A brief rundown, exact years not warranted accurate.

Selmer: both on left side till Balanced Action approx. 1936, then direct action on right side.

Conn: the very oldest ones were direct action on left, then with Wonder model(????) around 1915 (????) they went to low B direct action on left, low Bb by linkage on right. With the introduction of the "Artist" models around 1935 or so, the tenors went to both keys direct action on left, the baritone (and a bit later, the bass) went to both keys by linkage on right. This stayed as long as the actual Conn design horns were made; when UNI-designed horns came in, the details started changing accorrding to what design the horn was based on (some are Keilwerth genes, some are Beaugnier, some may be other things).

King: split action from Voll-True on (I don't know about before that); Zephyr alto and tenor (~1935?) went to both keys on right by linkage; Zephyr baritone stayed split action till the very end of production (1980??). Super 20 was introduced with both keys on right by linkage (1940?), but later generations (1950?) went to both keys on right with direct action.

Buescher: True-Tone split action from pretty early on; Aristocrat moved to both keys on left by direct action (but I think early Aristocrats were split action (???) so around 1930 (???) Buescher 400 went to direct action and toneholes on the back of the bell (the only make/model I've ever seen). During the period roughly 1958 to the end, there was a dizzying array of Buescher models, some called "400" with left side TH, some called "aristocrat" with back of bell TH, and Selmer USA and Bundy models with a bunch of different designs. The Bundy II is reputed to be a True-Tone acoustic design, but it has direct action right side bell keys - introduced when? mid 1960s?

Martin: Earliest ones i"ve seen were split action, but went to both keys left side direct action, with the "Committee" name ("Handcraft Committee", around 1935??) and stayed that way till the bitter end.

I believe Yamaha saxophones way back have been with both bell keys on the right and direct action. Maybe the earliest ones, which I BELIEVE (???) were Conn copies, were left side?

Any idea for Borgani ?

 

[PigSquealer]

It depends totally on the make and sometimes on the model. A brief rundown, exact years not warranted accurate.

Selmer: both on left side till Balanced Action approx. 1936, then direct action on right side.

Conn: the very oldest ones were direct action on left, then with Wonder model(????) around 1915 (????) they went to low B direct action on left, low Bb by linkage on right. With the introduction of the "Artist" models around 1935 or so, the tenors went to both keys direct action on left, the baritone (and a bit later, the bass) went to both keys by linkage on right. This stayed as long as the actual Conn design horns were made; when UNI-designed horns came in, the details started changing accorrding to what design the horn was based on (some are Keilwerth genes, some are Beaugnier, some may be other things).

King: split action from Voll-True on (I don't know about before that); Zephyr alto and tenor (~1935?) went to both keys on right by linkage; Zephyr baritone stayed split action till the very end of production (1980??). Super 20 was introduced with both keys on right by linkage (1940?), but later generations (1950?) went to both keys on right with direct action.

Buescher: True-Tone split action from pretty early on; Aristocrat moved to both keys on left by direct action (but I think early Aristocrats were split action (???) so around 1930 (???) Buescher 400 went to direct action and toneholes on the back of the bell (the only make/model I've ever seen). During the period roughly 1958 to the end, there was a dizzying array of Buescher models, some called "400" with left side TH, some called "aristocrat" with back of bell TH, and Selmer USA and Bundy models with a bunch of different designs. The Bundy II is reputed to be a True-Tone acoustic design, but it has direct action right side bell keys - introduced when? mid 1960s?

Martin: Earliest ones i"ve seen were split action, but went to both keys left side direct action, with the "Committee" name ("Handcraft Committee", around 1935??) and stayed that way till the bitter end.

I believe Yamaha saxophones way back have been with both bell keys on the right and direct action. Maybe the earliest ones, which I BELIEVE (???) were Conn copies, were left side?

I agree. I’ll add that in general most US makers made the change to all left or all right by 1940. Transitions starting about 1930 were more obvious.
Two I’ll add to your above commentary.
Holton on left about 1926 on Rudy model.
York seems to have left bell keys after 1931 but before 1938 from catalogue pictures.

 

[PigSquealer]

Any ideas on Borgani ??

Calling @Dr G on this maker. Aka Mr Borg.

 

[PigSquealer]

@turf3 what were the main reasons for the change? Split, left or right. Was this sound, comfort, damage from clothing or benefits or production driven. I’m guessing a bit of each.

 

[Dr G]

1937 +/- ~15 years.

Yeah, I really don't know. As to whether to buy a really old one, I'd check the play in the pivots. Many of their various models used a method of stuffing the end of keys with cork as a bearing surface for the pivots. When the cork wears out, there can be considerable wobble in various parts of the mechanism that, if left uncorrected, lead to poor seating of the pad on the tone hole. >> Leaks.

On my #1 Borgani, the keys were drilled out to accept bushings that were reamed to fit new pivot screws. S/N 18755J was proclaimed the first perfect Borgani in existence. Another one was similarly rebuilt for me, and I believe that at least one more was done as well.

I love the sound of a good Borgani tenor. Just make sure your tech knows how to set one up.

 

[lydian]

As stated, it varies enormously. My first sax, a Buescher Aristocrat from the 1970s, had the bell keys on the left.

Lots of other horns from the 70s and 80s had left hand bell keys - Conn, King (Cleveland), Bundy, Evette, etc. So it's never really been a case of everybody switching. More like some makers moved them, some followed suit, others didn't. I suspect right left hand keys are mechanically simpler, hence cheaper.

@Punchysax, what's the aim here, to find a the most recent Borgani (alto, tenor, bari?) that still has left hand bell keys? Is there a reason you prefer one versus the other (looks, ease of playing)?

 

[turf3]

@turf3 what were the main reasons for the change? Split, left or right. Was this sound, comfort, damage from clothing or benefits or production driven. I’m guessing a bit of each.

Well, any linkage is theoretically slower than direct action.

The older style of LH little finger keys required more of a pushing action of the little finger. I've written at length about "design by theory" vs. "design from anatomy" and I'm not going to repeat it here.

Suffice it to say, from the little I've read of period advertising, that those manufacturers who went from split action to left side direct action hailed "direct speedy action", and those who moved the bell keys to the right hailed "not muffled by clothing". To go to right side direct action requires running the rods down the middle of the horn and redesigning all the little finger keywork to get correct leverages. Selmer did this with the BA. It also usually, though not inevitably, converts the low C# from a positive action to a spring-opened key, and most makers who did this also had to add a C# hold-down arm so the C# couldn't be inadvertently opened when operating low B or low Bb. (Not necessary on the old, direct action left side layout, or the right side with linkages layout.)

Now I don't really think anyone believes the Conn 10M, to pick an example, suffers from "Muffling of low notes due to tone holes pointing at clothing", so I think that particular marketeering argument is pretty much BS.

I believe that Selmer wanted the general key action of the LH little finger to mimic the finger action of the other keys, a closing rather than a pushing motion, and they tweaked and fiddled till they got it. This is what I refer to as "design by theory".

But I think a detailed review of period advertising would be needed to really understand how the various makers presented these various changes. And of course what the marketeers say is likely not to accurately reflect why the engineers made certain design choices.

 

[mrblackbat]

Selmer BA in 1936.

The first Balanced Actions were 1935; I have a tenor and alto from those early ones.

 

[PigSquealer]

The first Balanced Actions were 1935; I have a tenor and alto from those early ones.

Correct.
Here’s the full archive by Douglas Pipher the official Selmer historian.

Les numéros de série des saxophones SELMER depuis 1922

Pour chaque instrument, un numéro unique Le numéro de série est un élément clé pour mieux connaître son saxophone. Chaque numéro de série est unique, il fournit donc des informations sur la date de fabrication de l’instrument et permet d’en établir l’authenticité. Les saxophones fabriqués à...

www.selmer.fr

 

[JayeNM]

Hi,
Was wondering what year roughly did the bell keys get moved from the left hand side to the right hand side of the sax
Thank you

As several replies already noted...some never did, right ?

Conn 16M's and 10M's always had left side keys....King Zeph baritones had split bell keys all the way until the very end (literally mid 1980's-still had split keys), I sorta LOVE that.

A better question might be (and I have no clue as to the answer) : what was the FIRST sax model to have right-side bellkeys ? That might be easier to sleuth out, actually. Maybe @helen knows this ?

 

[JayeNM]

I believe Yamaha saxophones way back have been with both bell keys on the right and direct action. Maybe the earliest ones, which I BELIEVE (???) were Conn copies, were left side?

Good breakdown...but believe it or not, the FIRST Yamaha-made Vito Tenors, had left-side bellkeys. Estimated to be sometime in mid 70's because I have known a couple players who purchased their new then. I for a long time thought these were just leftover bodies from the Vito AZ factory (Art Best) Nogales that Yama just inherited and outfitted some keywork to, but then I discovered the upper stack of one of these is exactly the same design as the stack of the YTS 21's. And they do not fit late Conn models made there or in 60's/70's. An oddity more than anything ele, but I found it interesting that Yama actually made a LH bellkey model for a bit. Horns like this (engraved Vito):