Playing the saxophone What does professional musician mean?

[Tonehole]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9kaQ3ZKPE0&t=20s

 

[Tonehole]

View: https://vimeo.com/467158620

 

[Tonehole]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcRyjkYdDxM&t=112s

 

[Colin the Bear]

@Colin the Bear?

Well. There was a time when my sole income was blowing a saxophone on the street, with others. It was supplemented by the occasional gig.
I don't think I was a very competent musician at that time. An enthusiastic blower of simple tunes with no idea of technique or theory.

Professional? I suppose, but I could only do what I did. I packed it in after 5 or so years. Beatles and Stephen Foster tunes in Eb were doing my head in, and the old Lafleur was flagging

Later I returned with an ipod and some home made BiaB backing tracks and a small P.A. Full time busking and the odd garden party and pub gig. Sole income. Better musician. G4m alto. Professional?

Retired now. Occasional gig and the odd busk. Semi retired, semi pro?

It has never occurred to me to label myself. If I had to, I've no idea.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But what if the teacher who has been certified and has a degree in performance piano only plays at recitals or charity events? Not a professional musician?

That would mean a saxophone professor say Bergonzi is no longer a professional musician as he makes the majority of his income teaching.

I've realised this topic is rather a can of worms, with so many interpretations. I'm not sure I can define the word. as an adjective it can describe the status of someone, but can also describe their behaviour.

For example I was on a tour earning decent enough money. I considered I was a professional musician. On the same tour I turned up late for a flight because I'd gone out and had a heavy night in San Francisco, woke up in a strange bed and realised I didn't even know the flight number, departure time or the tour manager's phone number. That was definitely NOT professional.

Maybe we all need to just go by our own definitions.

 

[Colin the Bear]

It's all coming out now😂

 

[Pete Thomas]

Compare with sports people Pep Guardiola was definitely a professional footballer. He stopped playing professionally and became a professional coach/manager. Is he a professional footballer now?

Of course perhaps not a perfect analogy as footballers are more or less forced to retire for age related fitness reasons.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I've realised this topic is rather a can of worms, with so many interpretations. I'm not sure I can define the word. as an adjective it can describe the status of someone, but can also describe their behaviour.

For example I was on a tour earning decent enough money. I considered I was a professional musician. On the same tour I turned up late for a flight because I'd gone out and had a heavy night in San Francisco, woke up in a strange bed and realised I didn't even know the flight number, departure time or the tour manager's phone number. That was definitely NOT professional.

Maybe we all need to just go by our own definitions.

At least you remembered who you were

 

[mizmar]

Compare with sports people Pep Guardiola was definitely a professional footballer. He stopped playing professionally and became a professional coach/manager. Is he a professional footballer now?

So, you say he stopped being a professional footballer and then ask if is now?

The more interesting analogy might be:
The day after his retirement party he was - presumably, give or take hangovers - no worse at football. But he was not longer A Professional Footballer. His priorities changed for his working day.
Maybe he was quite a good coach while playing football professionally. Then he was a professional coach while playing football recreationally.

Again, professionalism isn't a skill ranking.
It requires some skills, but requires other things as well.
Someone above was a professional musician. Stopped and became a professor. Their skills level didn't change overnight - their conduct changed. Some of that would, maybe, included fewer hours practicing, which may impact on skills... Fine. There's no end of profs who where top - or even mediocre - practitioners; are out of practice etc. in many disciplines.

 

[LostCircuits]

Sorry to poop the party but I'd argue that professional should be viewed independent of remuneration. I think the latter might deserve the term commercial player, as opposed to professional as opposed to amateur.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional

There are three different meanings for professional defined above. My pick is the one that focuses on the skill level rather than the compensation. Even worse, if you throw in the exclusive income clause, no investments, no crypto, no panhandling (30 years ago the average income of a roadside squeegee guy in NYC was upward of $80k pa).

Maybe declaring the income including tips could be a factor along with the fact that e.g., during the COVID shutdown, Colorado paid all musicians, who had declared their gig income to the IRS $600, per week.

Just a few ideas to think about.

 

[Veggie Dave]

If your main income comes from music (playing, writing, teaching) then you're a professional musician.

Professionalism is something any musician, from any level, can both have or lack.

 

[Pete Effamy]

If your main income comes from music (playing, writing, teaching) then you're a professional musician.

Professionalism is something any musician, from any level, can both have or lack.

In other words; it could be your profession, but you might not be very professional.

 

[Pete Thomas]

There are three different meanings for professional defined above. My pick is the one that focuses on the skill level rather than the compensation

Fair enough but who judges or assesses the skill level.

 

[LostCircuits]

Fair enough but who judges or assesses the skill level.

If there is a doubt about the skill level, how about behavior? I played professional disc golf, not because the pay-out was money but because I was tired of the amateurish behavior of some players in the amateur brackets. Cheating, heckling of competitors, you name it.

I met a Nobel Laureate who was found out after leaving Rockefeller University to have planted bugs and listening devices in other staff's and competitors' labs. That alone should have disqualified him for life but RU covered it up because it was also their reputation that was on the line.

Yes, I've also seen my share of amateurish behavior in "professional" players. Being rude, arrogant and condescending to others really puts a dent in anyone's professional attire.

But we never said that professionalism has to be a singular attribute. In fact, I would argue there are many facets that need to hold, and each one of them may improve or diminish what we perceive as professionalism.

Or am I wrong here? You tell me.

 

[skeller047]

What an interesting discussion. Sparks so many random thoughts. Like what music was back before civilization became so stratified - everyone sang and danced round the fire, maybe to appease the gods or celebrate a successful hunt, or just to have fun. Some maybe played flutes or rams horns or drums, but it was just part of life. Nobody was ONLY a musician. or even MOSTLY a musician, music was just part of how life was. (This is speculation, of course, but I think there is research to show it’s likely to be true.)

Nowadays, EVERYTHING is specialized, to the point where there are specialties within specialties (criminal vs. civil law, for example, and many sub-specialties within those). Today, most successful musicians have to do many things to survive; most folks do at least two or three of the following.

• Perform
• Write and/or arrange music
• Produce recorded music
• Teach
• Create digital content
• Act as an agent for booking themselves, or others
• Etc…

Is someone who does more than one of these things to earn a living not a professional musician? Does being a member of a union or a performance rights organization automatically qualify you for the term “pro”? Does being an agent, bandleader or audio engineer disqualify you?

In the end, most of us are trying to do two things - 1) survive, and 2) move, inspire or bring joy to others and ourselves by making interesting noises. If we can do 2) to accomplish 1), then so much the better.

 

[LostCircuits]

What an interesting discussion. Sparks so many random thoughts. Like what music was back before civilization became so stratified - everyone sang and danced round the fire, maybe to appease the gods or celebrate a successful hunt, or just to have fun. Some maybe played flutes or rams horns or drums, but it was just part of life. Nobody was ONLY a musician. or even MOSTLY a musician, music was just part of how life was. (This is speculation, of course, but I think there is research to show it’s likely to be true.)

Nowadays, EVERYTHING is specialized, to the point where there are specialties within specialties (criminal vs. civil law, for example, and many sub-specialties within those). Today, most successful musicians have to do many things to survive; most folks do at least two or three of the following.

• Perform
• Write and/or arrange music
• Produce recorded music
• Teach
• Create digital content
• Act as an agent for booking themselves, or others
• Etc…

Is someone who does more than one of these things to earn a living not a professional musician? Does being a member of a union or a performance rights organization automatically qualify you for the term “pro”? Does being an agent, bandleader or audio engineer disqualify you?

In the end, most of us are trying to do two things - 1) survive, and 2) move, inspire or bring joy to others and ourselves by making interesting noises. If we can do 2) to accomplish 1), then so much the better.

Be an Italian Fisherman, work construction, some are blessed to have a less physically demanding job like scientist, attorney, or engineer.

But yes, I just took a crash course in mastering. Not because I want to get into it but because it is becoming almost essential if you want to post anything online. And I have written and arranged pieces.

But no, I am still far away from anything professional.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

How old ? 😮

IIRC, it started when Eric and the Animals, played on the Ark. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

 

[Targa]

IIRC, it started when Eric and the Animals, played on the Ark. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

First gig on a cruise ship.

 

[thomsax]

If there is a doubt about the skill level, how about behavior? I played professional disc golf, not because the pay-out was money but because I was tired of the amateurish behavior of some players in the amateur brackets. Cheating, heckling of competitors, you name

I've met lots of professionals (paid) with bad behavior. As music organizer, chef .... . When I played in 3-horn section in a hobby-, amatuer-, woodshed- band and the hornsection added an extra rehearsal in between the weekly rehearsal, to to get a more tight and interesting sound, they told us we "were professional"!!!! A happy amatuer player can be ambitious and dedicated as well.

As chef I could cook, run a restaruant kitchen with profit, lead the work in the kitchen, talk to clients, write menus, teach .... . I was a professional. But that didn't help. It was hard to get new jobs. Who wanted chef anchored in classic international (French) and Scandinavian cooking? The professional owners sold thier places to ..... .

 

[Pete Effamy]

IIRC, it started when Eric and the Animals, played on the Ark. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

Well I’ve never seen it or heard of it this side of the pond