Vintage tenor, which one?

Bobby G · Jul 18, 2006

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lee_ · Jul 19, 2006

I guess the short answer is, "the one you can get your hands on".

You're opening up a great topic here, but let's face it - in the final analysis you're gonna have to 1) find some horns in working order that you can try; 2) pay top dollar for a restored horn from an on-line dealer or 3) go for a pig in a poke on E-bay. Which way you go kind of dictates what you're gonna end up with.

If you go with #1, you'll buy the horn that you fall in love with, no matter what its make (or vintage, for that matter). If you go #2, you're gonna get an expensive collector's item that hopefully will play well, but may be more of a showpiece. If you go for #3, may God (and Griff) help you.

As you can see, I'm more of an advocate of trying some available horns to see if you can find your soulmate.

Here are a few other random considerations:

The true vintage horns, such as Conn 10Ms and Chu Berrys and the Martins, are getting really old and will be harder and harder to maintain. This is also true of Selmer Mark VI's, which I believe are overrated and way, way overpriced anyway.

I believe there are a few sleeper horns that are excellent players, remain affordable, but probably don't have the real "vintage" panache thing going for them. These would include:

- Early 60s Buescher 400s, made after the true Top Hat and Cane Models without the frilly stuff, and before Selmer gutted the line.

- 70s Yamaha 61s. The first Yamaha "pro" horn.

- 70s Yanagisawa 800 and/or 880 models, also known as "Elimona" horns.

- Early Yamaha 62s. This is the horn that replaced the 61.

- I'm sure there are some others, including some of the German horns.

Let us know how the searching goes.

Pete Thomas · Jul 19, 2006

I can't add much to Lee's reply which is spot on.

If you want to steer clear of possible intonation issues, then I wouldn't go for realy early horns (ie 20s). Not that they aren't in tune, but I've noticed problems with Buescher truetones and Conn Chu Berry when coupled with modern mouthpieces.

You forgot to mention the fifth of the big 4 - King, great sound but I've heard of some intonation issues even with the later ones - but I admit I have limited experience of them

My recommendation would be Conn 10M Naked Lady (rolled tone holes ideally), Martin ("The" Martin), and SML - but not the later ones.

I would say Buescher TH & C 400 but you won't get one for your budget, so Lee's advice about the later 400s is worth going with.

As for sound I find very little difference of actual sound (that might be just me though), but the sound perceived by the player may differ more.

I think you'll find a Martin to be quite focussed (like the yamaha) as opposed to the fatness of a Conn.

Jimmymack · Jul 19, 2006

All good advice. I play a Super 20 and while I don't find it has intonation problems as such, i.e. it plays in tune, but you do have to be able to play it in tune more than you do a good modern horn. I suspect this might be true of a lot of vintage horns. I also play a Keilwerth and am always shocked that the note comes out dead centre.

saxismyaxe · Jul 19, 2006

I own and play all of the above, and you've received some sound (pun intended) advice all around. Much has been written about the Conns and Bueschers, so I'd like to add a few things about the other two FANTASTIC American makers, Martin and King.
I have my pick of horns, especially in the Tenor department, but have, without hesitation, made the Martin Committee Tenor my main ax. They do indeed have a remarkable core sound-very lush, deep and beautiful. They are a bit more focused than the Conns, without losing the dark tone, and the intonation is a bit better. Altissimo is a walk in the park, and the key work is fast, light and ultra smooth. These horns are beautifully built and engraved, but some of the most solid horns you are ever going to see. They are less mouthpiece fussy than comparable vintage horns too.
The Alto through Baritone models are all winners, and they can still be had for less than some of the other pro horns (although this is rapidly changing as we speak..those prices are starting to soar).

Many King models are really underrated horns presently. I have horns from the 20's H.N. White "King" up to the Super 20 Silver Sonic models, and all have that remarkable, scintillating presence of tone that Kings are noted for. The mid 20's Kings are nice horns, with good intonation (as Pete so astutely mentioned, a lot of the supposed intonation "issues" some report is due in large part to using an unsuitable MP setup), great tone, and key work that although requiring some finesse to set up properly, is surprisingly modern and efficient compared to other makes/models of this period. I'd seek out a horn with more modern key work given a choice if we are talking about making it your primary horn however. Just make sure you get a model that post dates the 1924 improvements that eliminated some of the octave vent and intonation issues with the earlier models.
The King Zephyrs, post early Voll True II based models and pre-Eastlake vintage, are fantastic in all regards, and great value for money. Every bit as good as the Super 20s, sans a few cosmetic frills. Both the Zephyrs and Super 20s are monster players, and will blow the roof off of just about anything out there. Regarding volume/ projection.... the sky is the limit.

As always, choosing from among so many great horns is a very personal trial, and the only way to know in your heart and mind which model is a perfect match for YOU is to play them all, preferably side by side.

Pete Thomas · Jul 19, 2006

That must be a very impressive collection, I'm envious.

One more thing about Martins. I agree with Michael they really are your best bet for the money and superb focussed sound and ease of playing, but bewrae they have soldered on toneholes. The idea may be this allows thicker walls as opposed to normal toneholes which are shaped out of the body (is extruded the word?).

This may be part of the reason they are so good, but as they are soldered, they can come unsoldered, ie the solder is quite likely to want to disintegrate after many years. It can of course be repaired but a complete strip down is required and some lacquer (if there is any) will be lost.

Bobby G · Jul 19, 2006

Wellthanks a lot for all that info. The reason I left out King as a possibility is the ones I have seen tend to be outside my budget. I am drawn to a Martin if I can find one, but again the more modern 'soon-to-be-vintage' horns like the 60's Bueschers or 70's Yamaha or Yanagisawa appeal to me as well. There are no doubt others worthy of attention (Keilworth?) that haven't had a mention so far.

I suppose for now it's a matter of amassing a few more pounds and keeping my eyes and ears open. It's a minefield isn't it!

Cheers, Bob

Saxlicker · Jul 19, 2006

Hi Bob,
I think Lee's sugestions of 'modern classics' or sleeper horns should give you the most choice, and more importantly I would think, that the early YTS62's are better than the late ones.
Given your current horn (and the fact that a 62 should reward you heaps more) why not have a fish around for one?

I know a few players with early ones and they sound great.
It was the top of the range at the time and given the fact that there are now a whole range within itself of 'yamaha Custom something or other', dare I suggest the YTS62 has had some cost cutting along the line despite a couple of face lifts?
In my experience something seems to be lost now.
(Hey! could you be starting another debate like the 5 digit serial number mk6's? :laugh: )

The early ones can be recognised by the purple printed yamaha on the bell which can wear off. (There should be some remains and plenty of other give aways like the engraving design - Edited after Mr Thomas's cheeky reply!!!! 🙂 )

If I've judged your desire right, from your post about your jam night when everything kicked in just right, a fairly bright metal mouthpiece on a 62 tends to compliment that style.
(I know, I know, its very personal so thats just a generalism)

Good luck !
Saxlicker

Bobby G · Jul 19, 2006

A YTS62 or even a 61 (does the 61 have high F#?) sounds like a good possibility, kind of 'old new' horn, so I suppose it'll have modern keywork and be relatively easy to fix, and will feel like what I'm used to in terms of key placement etc... Plus the odd ones I've seen are within my budget.

I have a YAS62 which I love a lot, and that had the purple logo on it which I really didn't like, so I suppose if alto follows tenor it's an earlier one as well.

Thanks for your continuing help, Bob

Pete Thomas · Jul 19, 2006

Saxlicker wrote:
The early ones can be recognised by the purple printed yamaha on the bell which can wear off.

So look for one that used to have the purple logo. 😉

Saxlicker · Jul 19, 2006

Bob Green wrote:
I suppose it'll have modern keywork and be relatively easy to fix, and will feel like what I'm used to in terms of key placement etc...

Bang on !
Also, I can only imagine a 61 has high F#

I have a YAS62 which I love a lot, and that had the purple logo on it which I really didn't like, so I suppose if alto follows tenor it's an earlier one as well.

Yes it is, (same as mine 😉 )
As far as modern horns go, I love top end yamaha's
They help my defecits more than any other, where more skilled players survive on anything.

More skilled players will blow anything well. ...true?
Look on ebay for listings of bently saxes (from alverstoke, Gosport) and Just listen to Tony wright playing on the link.
Saxlicker

Bobby G · Jul 19, 2006

Pete Thomas wrote:

Saxlicker wrote:
The early ones can be recognised by the purple printed yamaha on the bell which can wear off.

Read more…

So look for one that used to have the purple logo. 😉

Spot on, Pete! I should have said my YAS62 used to have the purple logo. Mind you, I had to help it reach that condition.... It's definitely a late 70's/early 80's ra-ra-skirt minipops first-term-of-Thatcher 'design' thing, no? As it happens, if you look at it from the right angle, you can still see what used to be the logo.

Cheers, Bob

saxismyaxe · Jul 19, 2006

Lumping the Yamaha horns into the same mix as the better, truly Vintage horns is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. The Yamahas have pleasant key work and are priced reasonably enough for used examples, but there is no comparing the overall sound between the two.
This is purely a matter of taste and need, however I think you know which takes the absolute lead in my book. 8)