Saxophones Van Marle Baritone, Who made this ?

[SaxBoss]

Would you replace all the springs?

 

[JayeNM]

I have all but three of the pivot points removed. Those three I’ve removed the post entirely. A couple of keys were stubborn also. Otherwise it’s completely apart.

Good luck with those, you know although I hate to admit this, on a few occasions, side keys, I have actually just managed to get the key loose and free on the buggered rod (but rod remained fused to the saddle post) and left it like that (obviously informing the owner that that is best it's gonna get)...since the key actually has enough clearance to get a pad in and out and cork onto its foot...

Nastier situation if it is a LH palmkey, though.

 

[PigSquealer]

Would you replace all the springs?

Yes. Including all the flat springs. There’s really nothing left of any of them. Not even enough to measure the thickness by extracting a shard out of the posts.

 

[PigSquealer]

Good luck with those, you know although I hate to admit this, on a few occasions, side keys, I have actually just managed to get the key loose and free on the buggered rod (but rod remained fused to the saddle post) and left it like that (obviously informing the owner that that is best it's gonna get)...since the key actually has enough clearance to get a pad in and out and cork onto its foot...

Nastier situation if it is a LH palmkey, though.

The pivots were already loose on barrels / tubes. Facing off the ends would’ve been a way to salvage fit. But then you have a pivot point the texture of a wood rasp.
The four keys removed had zero free movement. What little they did move was only on posts not inside barrel. I’ll machine dismantle the bits.
FWIW soaking in brew of hot alum didn’t do squat beyond blowing the rust off.

 

[JayeNM]

The pivots were already loose on barrels / tubes. Facing off the ends would’ve been a way to salvage fit. But then you have a pivot point the texture of a wood rasp.
The four keys removed had zero free movement. What little they did move was only on posts not inside barrel. I’ll machine dismantle the bits.
FWIW soaking in brew of hot alum didn’t do squat beyond blowing the rust off.

Yipes....you know, I always wondered if Alum did anything. I have a container of it here but never reported to using it. I had my doubts that it could deliver what it claims it can,..

 

[PigSquealer]

Yipes....you know, I always wondered if Alum did anything. I have a container of it here but never reported to using it. I had my doubts that it could deliver what it claims it can,..

I hadn’t tried this technique either. Curious and hopeful both. I gave it a go.
I used to commercial grade product. Dissolved in hot water. The result was an epic failure. I don’t know what those guys are using at that one music supply, but it doesn’t work.
FWIW if anybody tries this technique be aware it produces a carbon monoxide gas. Use in a very well ventilated area !

 

[PigSquealer]

Yes the pivot screws did come out just fine.

 

[PigSquealer]

30 hours + and it’s apart. That’s normally a hour or so.

Maybe I’ll do a repair thread on another day.

 

[PigSquealer]

Oddly one of these just listed FS on SOTW. SN# 1787. My SN# is 1786 what are the chances of finding another and sequentially the next number.🙂

https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/pierret-low-a-baritone-saxophone-van-marle-stencil.403327/

 

[jonf]

Looks nice. How's the work going on your one, @PigSquealer ?

 

[PigSquealer]

Looks nice. How's the work going on your one, @PigSquealer ?

Haven’t touched it since the last post. Personal items got delayed to get the work done.

 

[Ghr9204]

Personal items got delayed to get the work done.

It's called, "Bringing in the bacon."

 

[PigSquealer]

It's called, "Bringing in the bacon."

Yeah, like I have 40+ in the schedule. Backlog of 7-9 months +/-. I do about one a week. Most all 1915-1935. Some but not much 1948 to 1970. A few weeks ago I had a 2005 Yamaha on the bench. COA took about five hours.…..boring job. Like washing & detailing a modern car.
I still do vintage car builds too. A $35K build I did two years ago beat a 911 Porsche at the dragstrip. Small details matter. L O L the car owner/driver in this picture is 84 years old with lots of experience….Cooked the guy off the tree.
The beer stops when the checkered flag drops !

Vintage saxophone’s are time consuming. Young techs shy away from older saxophones. They’re harder to work on, different mentality and skill set. Honestly I find old units more rewarding when finished. There’s just something about sending older items out to be competitive in a modern world. It’s very satisfying.

Two days ago I finished a 1972 Buffet Super Dynactiom tenor. The unit has had a Intresting life…. Not a single pad matched. I handmade a set of pads for the customer .

 

[thomsax]

Yeah, like I have 40+ in the schedule. Backlog of 7-9 months +/-. I do about one a week. Most all 1915-1935. Some but not much 1948 to 1970. A few weeks ago I had a 2005 Yamaha on the bench. COA took about five hours.…..boring job. Like washing & detailing a modern car.
I still do vintage car builds too. A $35K build I did two years ago beat a 911 Porsche at the dragstrip. Small details matter. L O L the car owner/driver in this picture is 84 years old with lots of experience….Cooked the guy off the tree.
The beer stops when the checkered flag drops !
View attachment 25318
Vintage saxophone’s are time consuming. Young techs shy away from older saxophones. They’re harder to work on, different mentality and skill set. Honestly I find old units more rewarding when finished. There’s just something about sending older items out to be competitive in a modern world. It’s very satisfying.

Two days ago I finished a 1972 Buffet Super Dynactiom tenor. The unit has had a Intresting life…. Not a single pad matched. I handmade a set of pads for the customer .

View attachment 25322
View attachment 25319



View attachment 25320
View attachment 25321

So the pads on the picture is made by you? BC Dynaction had a pad system with screw and washer but by 1972 I guess they had ordinary pads? Cool saxes. Ballads comes out great. But on the other side a little bit to hard to the the right "screaming pig" tones.

 

[PigSquealer]

So the pads on the picture is made by you? BC Dynaction had a pad system with screw and washer but by 1972 I guess they had ordinary pads? Cool saxes. Ballads comes out great. But on the other side a little bit to hard to the the right "screaming pig" tones.

The tenor only had two dome screw type boosters left. A hard to find new part in the sizes. Dome with rivet are available in sets @$50
Yes I machined the sizes to make the set. FMR are available in 100’s only. 7/8” is largest available. So ya spend $250 for a inventory and you still need to make three additional larger sizes.

 

[farina_man]

The Van Marle baritone is definitely a Pierret, probably dating from around late '50s/ early '60s. It looks similar to a Pierret Artist I had some years ago. You sometimes see them as Olds Parisians or Pierrets as Bbs but I've never seen a low-A one before.
By this time Pierrets were not of the quality they produced pre-war and just post-war, having lost most of their best workers to Selmer, amongst other rivals. The last "pro" Pierret (IMHO) was the earlier version of the "Artist Competition", which was a version of the "Super Artist" from around 1952.
Sadly, Pierret seem to have operatred a serial number system based on the game of Pin the Tail on The Donkey, in other words they picked them out of the air, in no sort of logical sequence. The best way to date earlier instruments is by (i) patent dates, and (ii) the address inscribed on the bell, as it is known when the company moved. Either on here or on SOTW someone has examined these dates and been able to identify, to some extent, when certain models were produced.
I saw photos of a Pierret C-melody on one of these threads which had a double octave mechanism - I've never seen one of those on a Pierret before, so it must have been very early. Pierrets were produced between 1906 and approx. 1972, although most of the last 10 years production seems to have been stencilled, rather like the baritone in question.
Over the past 30 years I've owned many Pierrets and still have a few - Altos: 1930s Modele 6, 2 x Modele 7; 1920s "Nil Melior", Virtuor, and an early stencil "Kandowski" which has clap hands bell keys (some Pierret stencils did, although no "proper" ones that I know of) and a non- articulated G#, which I've never seen on any other Pierret. I have 2 Pierret tenors: c.1930 Vibrator (my no. 1 tenor for 30 years) and an earlier "Nil Melior" tenor photos of which used to be on Helen's site years ago.
Some of these will be up for sale over the next year or two as I continue to reduce my collection, 14 clarinets, 11 altos, 6 tenors, 2 c-melodies, a soprano and a baritone is too many for a more or less retired jazzer!

 

[PigSquealer]

The Van Marle baritone is definitely a Pierret, probably dating from around late '50s/ early '60s. It looks similar to a Pierret Artist I had some years ago. You sometimes see them as Olds Parisians or Pierrets as Bbs but I've never seen a low-A one before.
By this time Pierrets were not of the quality they produced pre-war and just post-war, having lost most of their best workers to Selmer, amongst other rivals. The last "pro" Pierret (IMHO) was the earlier version of the "Artist Competition", which was a version of the "Super Artist" from around 1952.
Sadly, Pierret seem to have operatred a serial number system based on the game of Pin the Tail on The Donkey, in other words they picked them out of the air, in no sort of logical sequence. The best way to date earlier instruments is by (i) patent dates, and (ii) the address inscribed on the bell, as it is known when the company moved. Either on here or on SOTW someone has examined these dates and been able to identify, to some extent, when certain models were produced.
I saw photos of a Pierret C-melody on one of these threads which had a double octave mechanism - I've never seen one of those on a Pierret before, so it must have been very early. Pierrets were produced between 1906 and approx. 1972, although most of the last 10 years production seems to have been stencilled, rather like the baritone in question.
Over the past 30 years I've owned many Pierrets and still have a few - Altos: 1930s Modele 6, 2 x Modele 7; 1920s "Nil Melior", Virtuor, and an early stencil "Kandowski" which has clap hands bell keys (some Pierret stencils did, although no "proper" ones that I know of) and a non- articulated G#, which I've never seen on any other Pierret. I have 2 Pierret tenors: c.1930 Vibrator (my no. 1 tenor for 30 years) and an earlier "Nil Melior" tenor photos of which used to be on Helen's site years ago.
Some of these will be up for sale over the next year or two as I continue to reduce my collection, 14 clarinets, 11 altos, 6 tenors, 2 c-melodies, a soprano and a baritone is too many for a more or less retired jazzer!

Thanks for posting. That’s some great information to run with. I have seen what little @helen has on site. She is still fighting site gremlins. Other than Bassic Sax there’s not much information available on the net. A few posted between here and the other place. Mostly members asking questions. Not historical info.
The lo A in conversation is a bit of an oddball. I completely agree it’s late ‘50s- early’60s. I’ve only found one other to date. The one in post #49.
I really need to get back to finish the overhaul. It needs a ton of work.

I’m interested in hearing more about your collection. Any catalogs or advertising on hand ? I would love to see a C Melody advertisement. Are yours HP or LP ?

 

[JayeNM]

The Van Marle baritone is definitely a Pierret, probably dating from around late '50s/ early '60s. It looks similar to a Pierret Artist I had some years ago. You sometimes see them as Olds Parisians or Pierrets as Bbs but I've never seen a low-A one before.
By this time Pierrets were not of the quality they produced pre-war and just post-war, having lost most of their best workers to Selmer, amongst other rivals. The last "pro" Pierret (IMHO) was the earlier version of the "Artist Competition", which was a version of the "Super Artist" from around 1952.
Sadly, Pierret seem to have operatred a serial number system based on the game of Pin the Tail on The Donkey, in other words they picked them out of the air, in no sort of logical sequence. The best way to date earlier instruments is by (i) patent dates, and (ii) the address inscribed on the bell, as it is known when the company moved. Either on here or on SOTW someone has examined these dates and been able to identify, to some extent, when certain models were produced.
I saw photos of a Pierret C-melody on one of these threads which had a double octave mechanism - I've never seen one of those on a Pierret before, so it must have been very early. Pierrets were produced between 1906 and approx. 1972, although most of the last 10 years production seems to have been stencilled, rather like the baritone in question.
Over the past 30 years I've owned many Pierrets and still have a few - Altos: 1930s Modele 6, 2 x Modele 7; 1920s "Nil Melior", Virtuor, and an early stencil "Kandowski" which has clap hands bell keys (some Pierret stencils did, although no "proper" ones that I know of) and a non- articulated G#, which I've never seen on any other Pierret. I have 2 Pierret tenors: c.1930 Vibrator (my no. 1 tenor for 30 years) and an earlier "Nil Melior" tenor photos of which used to be on Helen's site years ago.
Some of these will be up for sale over the next year or two as I continue to reduce my collection, 14 clarinets, 11 altos, 6 tenors, 2 c-melodies, a soprano and a baritone is too many for a more or less retired jazzer!

Appreciate your insights, wanna chime in just to mention something. The Artist models are not the same as the Olds Parisians. This thread resurrection was interestingly timely, because a few weeks ago I completed a refurb on the Artist I mentioned above. It is no base model by any means, and this one certainly post-dates the early 50's.But would agree with it being pre-60's, probably.

If we consider a Conn 11 or 12m or Martin Comm 3 or Magna a 'pro' vintage baritone, this would meet that categorization as well. Build was good, some interesting and unique keywork mechanisms employed on side keys, tonality was big and fat and rich, intonation was quite good , better than a Conn for sure...and the Low A thumb trigger really did the job. Full closure, nice and snappy.

I agree besides this one I had and the OP's Van Marle, I have never seen a Pierret Low A before. Glad i got the chance to work on one.. @PigSquealer it is worthy of an overhaul for sure.

 

[PigSquealer]

@PigSquealer it is worthy of an overhaul for sure.

Thanks ! That’s encouraging. I was hesitant to put a ton of effort into a potential lamp.

 

[JayeNM]

Thanks ! That’s encouraging. I was hesitant to put a ton of effort into a potential lamp.

Just a forewarning...take apart the side Bb and C lever pieces carefully...some unique design there, the barrels have a steel tube inserted inside of them ....