Saxophones Van Marle Baritone, Who made this ?

[PigSquealer]

@ghostler ***** Thanks @JayeNM on the practical ballpark costs for a relacquer job. As you point out, it would have to be a high cost demanding vintage horn to make such work profitable. *****

There is a deceiving amount of work that goes into prepping for lacquer. Polishing around all the post is insanely time-consuming. All the springs need to be removed. No swirl marks whatsoever in the finish. Practically sterile surface(no grease oil or dirt). completely dust free. The body of the lacquer needs to be thinned for ambient temperature. No runs. If you don’t use the spray booth you‘re asking for overspray *ell. If you’ve survived all that you end up with something to hand rub to a pleasing gloss.

Equate this to painting a vintage motorcycle like an early 70s Moto Guzzi. Front and rear fender, two side panels and a gas tank. Tank Chrome is hopefully reusable or add $500. The white color scheme has two pinstripes. Black and red by hand. The emblems are silkscreened on. $6k and plan on a month doing the work.

 

[PigSquealer]

I’ve tried using Brasso on different applications for 40+ years. That product completely sucks.
It was @JayeNM that introduced me to Renaissance wax. There is a certain beauty to preserving something as a original survivor.

 

[ghostler]

@PigSquealer , understand where you are coming from. I've painted a half dozen cars with various systems over the years and a motorcycle. About 6 years ago, I painted as a favor to a friend who put a tool bag on the front of his 2013 Yamaha V-Star 1300, hit a rut in the road (we have a lot of them in New Mexico), fender traveled upward into the tool bag placing a good size dent about a half inch deep and 4 inches in diameter in his fortunately sheet steel (not plastic) front fender. I bumped it out with my body tools, then filled imperfections, sanded, primed, spot filled, reprimed, etc., then shot 2 coats of 2 part color with hardener. Rubbed it out some as I don't have a dust free garage. Photos with steps skipped:

Basically wash, rinse, repeat. He was surprised to see that the dent can no longer be seen.

I’ve tried using Brasso on different applications for 40+ years. That product completely sucks.
It was @JayeNM that introduced me to Renaissance wax. There is a certain beauty to preserving something as a original survivor.

I learned to use Brasso judiciously (military loves unlacquered brass items on their uniforms), so, I've learned to make do. If not careful, you can remove the lacquer with it. 😛 But, I will definitely try your Renaissance Wax next time, this is new to me and I look forward to giving it a try. 😎

Beaugnier Vito Bari as received:

After straightening key racks, bumping dents out, adjusting pad heights:

Last, I bumped out the bow and added plastic ruby jewels to the pad guards (not shown). But, no doubt it would have looked better with your Rennaisance Wax.

 

[PigSquealer]

@ghostler Nice repair work on the fender ! Lol, I completely understand the wash-rinse-repeat ! It’s always a bummer on the finishing stage when you burn through a spot on the paint and have to start over

Your bari looks great too ! No doubt that took evening or six
I’ve never tried the concoction, but I have a friend who is successful using a mixture of baking soda and lime juice to etch the red rot off. This is only done with a disassembled unit. Renaissance wax used as a preservative.

Thanks for posting the pictures of your baritone. I can definitely see some related characteristics to the Van Marle in conversation. Any idea what year it is ?

 

[JayeNM]

Honestly I thought this was a big pile of junk. Originally gifted to me as somewhat of a thank you and a joke. Intended use… flower pot ! A few days after receiving….I picked it up and looked it over well. The first surprise was the Low A. The second surprise was the engraving all the way to the bow. That’s usually a sign of something being a little more upscale.
Upper body tube has a slight bend from where it fell over. That’s probably how the neck got knocked out of the receiver. Otherwise there’s amazingly few dings.

The HUGE question here is: are the rods and keys free ? Or is anything binding or rusted ?

THAT would be the biggest determining factor as to whether it's a feasible refurb candidate.

If there are frozen/rusted keys to rods....it may just better serve as a piece of garden sculpture. It takes a horn in really BAD shape for me to ever say that, but a bighorn with frozen/rusted rods will make me say just that.

Also, you ready to remove the upper bow/crook ? Unless it is dent-free and twist-free, IMHO it's the easiest way to access the body tube for straightening and dent work. Also makes removing dents from up there much easier.

Best of luck !!!!

 

[ghostler]

@ghostler Nice repair work on the fender ! Lol, I completely understand the wash-rinse-repeat ! It’s always a bummer on the finishing stage when you burn through a spot on the paint and have to start over

Thanks! Actually I was referring to the process of surface preparation prior to painting. A pro who does autobody day in and out would have had this task completed in very short order. I don't have that kind of time invested, so it takes me longer to get things right.

Your bari looks great too ! No doubt that took evening or six

Thanks! It was an evolving process over a period of several years. It would play because it had decent pads, but it played very badly out of tune. There was no way I could lip up or down to get it to play in tune, until I started adjustments. left pinky table was badly out of alignment due to bent rod posts, until I straightened them and bumped out dents under them.

Every little tweak improved it. Corrected intonation by correcting the pad heights over the tone holes.

Thanks for posting the pictures of your baritone. I can definitely see some related characteristics to the Van Marle in conversation. Any idea what year it is ?

Best I could tell by researching various sax forums and repair technician blogs including Doctor Sax was it predated 1955 but was after the very earliest 1950's. Some info was inferred from the related Beaugnier tenor sax. From 1955 on, the left pinky table layout changed. 1951 and earlier, those saxes had differences (location of pads, etc.)

So, I figure on a date somewhere around 1953 to 1954. Unfortunately, there were no details for those particular years.

But, I was happy with my repair results, because I found that this Vito now plays very well in tune. It has a unique key compensation feature when one depresses the lower D key, it automatically is linked to open up the C# pad, so it plays in tune. On my other saxes, I must at the same time press the C# key to raise the D so it plays in tune in the lower register.

(With heavy use, I now need to replace a few pads.)

Also, I found it very easy to play falsetto notes on it. When younger, I desired the optional high F# key, but the key pad on saxes is placed in an awkward position, that I find it much easier to use the falsetto fingering on my saxes without especially playing faster tempo passages. Thus, one in reality does not need this special key.

Recently I found a post in another forum referring to a paper:

THE BARITONE CHRONOLOGY, a study of the baritone saxophone evolution in jazz history, by Piersimone Crinelli

From this link:

SOTW: Baris: Low A or Just to Bb, KeithL, Post# 162

The research paper from the Academy of Music and Drama, University of Gothenburg, spoke of the advantages of the low Bb versus low A baris, that the lower notes are brighter because of the lack of extended stack to resonate the low A. Overall I have found that I can get by without the low A and this sax being lighter in weight, is very nice to tool around in.

As pointed out, I gather there is as probably as much controversy in the Low A versus Low Bb bari argument as there is in discussing motorcycle oils (for humor, see:
Spagthorpe Maintenance Bulletins: Synthetic Motor Oil )

 

[PigSquealer]

Thanks! Actually I was referring to the process of surface preparation prior to painting. A pro who does autobody day in and out would have had this task completed in very short order. I don't have that kind of time invested, so it takes me longer to get things right.


Thanks! It was an evolving process over a period of several years. It would play because it had decent pads, but it played very badly out of tune. There was no way I could lip up or down to get it to play in tune, until I started adjustments. left pinky table was badly out of alignment due to bent rod posts, until I straightened them and bumped out dents under them.

Every little tweak improved it. Corrected intonation by correcting the pad heights over the tone holes.


Best I could tell by researching various sax forums and repair technician blogs including Doctor Sax was it predated 1955 but was after the very earliest 1950's. Some info was inferred from the related Beaugnier tenor sax. From 1955 on, the left pinky table layout changed. 1951 and earlier, those saxes had differences (location of pads, etc.)

So, I figure on a date somewhere around 1953 to 1954. Unfortunately, there were no details for those particular years.

But, I was happy with my repair results, because I found that this Vito now plays very well in tune. It has a unique key compensation feature when one depresses the lower D key, it automatically is linked to open up the C# pad, so it plays in tune. On my other saxes, I must at the same time press the C# key to raise the D so it plays in tune in the lower register.

(With heavy use, I now need to replace a few pads.)

Also, I found it very easy to play falsetto notes on it. When younger, I desired the optional high F# key, but the key pad on saxes is placed in an awkward position, that I find it much easier to use the falsetto fingering on my saxes without especially playing faster tempo passages. Thus, one in reality does not need this special key.

Recently I found a post in another forum referring to a paper:

THE BARITONE CHRONOLOGY, a study of the baritone saxophone evolution in jazz history, by Piersimone Crinelli

From this link:

SOTW: Baris: Low A or Just to Bb, KeithL, Post# 162

The research paper from the Academy of Music and Drama, University of Gothenburg, spoke of the advantages of the low Bb versus low A baris, that the lower notes are brighter because of the lack of extended stack to resonate the low A. Overall I have found that I can get by without the low A and this sax being lighter in weight, is very nice to tool around in.

As pointed out, I gather there is as probably as much controversy in the Low A versus Low Bb bari argument as there is in discussing motorcycle oils (for humor, see:
Spagthorpe Maintenance Bulletins: Synthetic Motor Oil )

Always something to learn. Thanks for the links ! Especially the one on the oil. That’s just comical

 

[PigSquealer]

The HUGE question here is: are the rods and keys free ? Or is anything binding or rusted ?

THAT would be the biggest determining factor as to whether it's a feasible refurb candidate.

If there are frozen/rusted keys to rods....it may just better serve as a piece of garden sculpture. It takes a horn in really BAD shape for me to ever say that, but a bighorn with frozen/rusted rods will make me say just that.

Also, you ready to remove the upper bow/crook ? Unless it is dent-free and twist-free, IMHO it's the easiest way to access the body tube for straightening and dent work. Also makes removing dents from up there much easier.

Best of luck !!!!

OK so I took it down from the rafters. Spent about 20 minutes fiddling with everything. It’s hard to tell on interconnected mechanisms what’s really moving. The lower stack all moves but the F#. The upper stack all moves. Bell keys A moves, B&Bb are stuck and turn the rod in posts.
At the same time there is no doubt many/all of the hinge rod ends are completely stuck in the posts. That’s no big deal. All the pivot points will need to be extracted. I don’t expect any luck on those coming out naturally. Everything the size of a LH palm hinge is stuck or borderline stuck. I’m guessing 70% is moving and doable. The biggest pain I’m seeing is the cloth guard screws. Extracting those without damaging the mounting luggs will be time consuming. Probably best just to cut the heads off and drill / re-tap the hole. This Horn was actually passed to me after the previous owner attempted removing a lower guard.
L O L he asked me if I could give it an overhaul

At the moment it’s basking in the sun soaked in PB blaster. A complete disassembly removing posts and the body tube is not beyond my ability or desire. Although I question my sanity well being 😵

 

[ghostler]

Certainly sounds promising that it won't live the rest of its life as a landscape or house facia ornament.

Speaking of PB Blaster, recently I was able to free up an early 1950's Cox .049 Space-Bug Jr. model aeroplane engine frozen by age old congealed Castor oil, using another familiar penetrating oil.

Probably to the cringes of some, I have also used it as key oil on some of my older horns.

 

[PigSquealer]

If there’s a speedway track nearby pick up some methanol. That frees up those little gas motors quite easily. That old bean oil is particularly gooey

 

[ghostler]

If there’s a speedway track nearby pick up some methanol. That frees up those little gas motors quite easily. That old bean oil is particularly gooey

Tell me about it, got lots of stories, but best reserved outside this forum as it has little to do with saxes and music, even a few salvage cases turning a sow's ear into a silk purse. Example:
K&B .35 Stallion Acquisition

In short, a seller misrepresented the motor's condition claiming exterior aluminum casting occlusions typical of pre 1960 motors. No, it was carefully sand blasted to hide defects including a rusty combustion chamber. After research, found it was dated around 1974, "occlusions" were caused by water corrosion, maybe a field find, but I turned it into a good runner.

This is probably not much different than your success stories in turning a sax of questionable value due to poor physicial condition, and restoring it to excellent playing condition and acceptable cosmetic condition.

 

[PigSquealer]

Tell me about it, got lots of stories, but best reserved outside this forum as it has little to do with saxes and music, even a few salvage cases turning a sow's ear into a silk purse. Example:
K&B .35 Stallion Acquisition

In short, a seller misrepresented the motor's condition claiming exterior aluminum casting occlusions typical of pre 1960 motors. No, it was carefully sand blasted to hide defects including a rusty combustion chamber. After research, found it was dated around 1974, "occlusions" were caused by water corrosion, maybe a field find, but I turned it into a good runner.

This is probably not much different than your success stories in turning a sax of questionable value due to poor physicial condition, and restoring it to excellent playing condition and acceptable cosmetic condition.

Great article! Saxophones are just one of my multitude of lifetime hobbies. That engine K& B .35 was fit for a number of U line control airplanes. Like a 36” Voodoo. I still have two McCoy 35 Red Heads from those. One has never been fired.
fwiw I would have polished the case by vibrating in 1/16 & 1/8” steel balls. Masking off machined surfaces.

 

[PigSquealer]

The HUGE question here is: are the rods and keys free ? Or is anything binding or rusted ?

THAT would be the biggest determining factor as to whether it's a feasible refurb candidate.

If there are frozen/rusted keys to rods....it may just better serve as a piece of garden sculpture. It takes a horn in really BAD shape for me to ever say that, but a bighorn with frozen/rusted rods will make me say just that.

Also, you ready to remove the upper bow/crook ? Unless it is dent-free and twist-free, IMHO it's the easiest way to access the body tube for straightening and dent work. Also makes removing dents from up there much easier.

Best of luck !!!!

A COA on a YAS 23 was a no show today. Had some time to fettle a bit.
The bari Is very doable ! Big time consuming project but definitely doable. I should probably start a repair thread. 7 hours just today.

 

[ghostler]

Great article! Saxophones are just one of my multitude of lifetime hobbies. That engine K& B .35 was fit for a number of U line control airplanes. Like a 36” Voodoo. I still have two McCoy 35 Red Heads from those. One has never been fired. fwiw I would have polished the case by vibrating in 1/16 & 1/8” steel balls. Masking off machined surfaces.

Thanks! I have 4 of those McCoy .35 Red Heads, great engines, much smoother running than the venerable Fox .35's, plus my share of control line planes and kits. About only thing fuel is getting more expensive and harder to get.

Seeing how you got that Van Marle stripped down in short order, looks like another fun restoration project and once done, will make a nice vintage player with class.

The 4 corrosion spots on the upper bell and signs of unsoldering on one side, seems at one time there might have been either two guards or braces there at one time.

 

[PigSquealer]

Mr. Van Marle has many signs of previous repair. I honestly don’t think I could hurt it anymore. I’ll start a repair thread on Van later.
Meanwhile I’m searching for information on Olds, Beaunger, Pierret & Van Marle.
Brief read points to pre 1960 birthdate. I doubt an age of pre 1940.
Intresting that Santy Runyon stencils were made by Pierret.


@Stephen Howard has a encouraging article on a other mode / alto. Maybe I’m not polishing a t u r d

Pierret Competition alto sax review

A review of the Pierret Competition alto saxophone

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

@helen has some great information going. I assume this section is under revisions again. Still a few pictures for compaison use.

Pierret - Bassic Sax | Bassic Sax

Pierret was a saxophone only manufacturer from Paris, France. In operation from 1926-1972. This page explores the company's numerous models & provides pics.

bassic-sax.info

One article by Pete Hale from his old Saxpics site.

Pierret History :: SaxPics.com

saxpics.com.

14 Picture files. Two baritone listed. Only one would load the actual picture. Photo Gallery :: SaxPics.com

I think I can do better than this.

 

[Dr G]

If there’s a speedway track nearby pick up some methanol. That frees up those little gas motors quite easily. That old bean oil is particularly gooey

Mmmmm, I miss that smell at the ol' race track.

 

[PigSquealer]

Mmmmm, I miss that smell at the ol' race track.

It’s a little bit of a drive but you can get your fix this weekend.

Race Schedule - Fast Fridays Motorcycle Speedway Auburn CA

www.fastfridays.com

 

[Jeanette]

Mmmmm, I miss that smell at the ol' race track.

Me too 🙂

Jx

 

[JayeNM]

A COA on a YAS 23 was a no show today. Had some time to fettle a bit.
The bari Is very doable ! Big time consuming project but definitely doable. I should probably start a repair thread. 7 hours just today.

Congrats, Man, you got 'em all off ! Quite honestly, I wouldn't even bother extracting the remaining stuck screws from the posts, as I assume that you got ONE screw end off of each key. Just hit the stuck ones with more blaster and let them be, abrade & steel wool the head sides to get the rust off best you can. Will not negatively effect the performance nor serviceability of the horn in the future.

Get body and keys cleaned up, everything from this point onward is much more fun...!!!

 

[PigSquealer]

Congrats, Man, you got 'em all off ! Quite honestly, I wouldn't even bother extracting the remaining stuck screws from the posts, as I assume that you got ONE screw end off of each key. Just hit the stuck ones with more blaster and let them be, abrade & steel wool the head sides to get the rust off best you can. Will not negatively effect the performance nor serviceability of the horn in the future.

Get body and keys cleaned up, everything from this point onward is much more fun...!!!

Yeah I got some off by just having one end loose. I cringe doing it this way and rightfully so on this one. A point or bullet tip typically doesn’t cause a problem. It’s when you get one and loose and skew the part out….. then find it’s a straight pin. Houston we have a problem !

I’m going to use all new pivots. I’m not putting this much work into this to use salvaged half knackered parts.

I have all but three of the pivot points removed. Those three I’ve removed the post entirely. A couple of keys were stubborn also. Otherwise it’s completely apart.