Two Tone Bottom C

impulse

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I can play bottom C nicely if I run down FEDC but when I try and play C by itself I get a higher pitched note that then drops down to the correct C. My meter is swinging around a lot so it is hard to tell what the note is but it sounds too low for the next C up. What`s happening here and how can I get that illusive correct C straight off?
Russ
 
Assuming you don't have a slight leak from a pad somewhere that is overcome by the consistancy of closing the FEDC one after the other, it is probably just a little bit of evevrything.
Now I know that doesn't sound to helpful, but if you remember taking one stabiliser off your bike and trying not to fall off, its so, so similar!
The lower keys need better air support,
Better embouchure,
more precise fingering (like not knocking the palm keys for example)
e.t.c. e.t.c.
Just like when you rode that bike and had to remember to look straight ahead and not over compensate on balance, steering e.t.c.
Somehow, somewhen, it will sub conciously happen and as your confidence grows, the easier it gets.
I think I can remember being shown a 'pop key' technique but I don't remember exactly what it was.
Hopefully some one else can fill in the details on that while I rack my brain.
 
The low notes are always easier when you run down to them. Theres some good sax warm up exercises on Tim Price's site that involve a lot of low note stuff. Both on there own and switching from say low Bb to midBb, etc.

http://www.timpricejazz.com/lessons/sax_warmup.pdf
Theres some others on http://www.timpricejazz.com/lessons too.

Oli
 
That pop key thing I was talking about.....
I remember now, Its similar to running down the keys.
What you do is finger the next note down from the one you want to play (obviously don't bother with sharps and flats necessarily).

So if a tune or phrase starts on bottom C and it gives you grief.....finger bottom B but let go of the B as you breathe and get the reed moving.
The note 'pops' out! (hopefully :whistle: )

So if was bottom F you have a problem with...try bottom E and let go!

I have no idea if using this is an eventual cure..but I did it and I don't struggle anymore!
 
Try this:

Finger bottom C but remove you right index finger from the F key and just as you blow replace the finger. This also applies to bottom B and Bb. Hope this helps
 
Your method works for me Saxlicker, I use it sometimes.

I think your first comment was the important one though... make sure the sax is setup properly (pad heights as well) and also try to hit the notes with proper embouchure/air support/pratise before resorting to tricks.
 
Thanks all you folks who replied to my query. I asked my teacher to play the bottom C straight off and note that he had the same problem but not as pronounced as I had. There must be a reason why running down FEDC makes for an easier C. By the way this problem is happening just on my tenor sax. I can detect no pad leaks ; it`s a new sax. I`ll try all your suggestions. Thanks .Russ
 
Russ, with respect and not saying there is anything wrong with your horn, but it is a sad fact that even new saxes from the best of manufacturers are not necessarily setup properly and IM(novice)O it is well worth getting it checked out by a tech, especially if you and your teacher (assume he/she was trying your horn!?) are finding the same problem. It might not be a leak, it could be pad/key height or a slightly sticking mechanism, or a weak/dislodged spring etc.

Just my 2c

Good luck Ken.
 
Yeh must agree with Kens H(N)O - new horns can often be worse than one thats seen a few years use for leaks. Often running down to a note can brush over the leaks. Then again, if its not a leak may just need practice, though if your teacher has similar problem, its worth getting it checked out - try http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/HandyHints/LeakyPads.htm if you wanna check for your own leaks and can't afford a techy (although if it hasnt been checked out by a techy yet may be an good time to have one run their eyes over it)
Oli
 
My thanks to all who contributed.The teach. was playing his own sax and while I hear what you say about new saxes not being set up right I`ll be pretty disappointed if that is the case with this one as it is the top tenor from Yamaha. Now I know I am showing my novice status here, but I`m not getting much improvement with the finger coming off F or the B prior to the C. What I need to find out tho,` is this "di-dah"sound a common problem? It must be if folk are saying it is easier to run FED to get to C. Perhaps it is unique to the tenor sax as my alto is fine. Russ
 
I just scanned the thread, so please excuse me if I am incorrect, at the very least, perhaps I will be of help anyways.

What you are referring to could be an overtone. Take a second and whistle a few notes going up and down. What happens in your mouth when you do this? Your tongue should be going up and down slightly.

Now...time to apply this discovery to the saxophone. Just using the mouthpiece, blow as loudly as you can. Get a piano and figure out what pitch is coming out of the sax.

Work with the mouthpiece every day, and try getting different pitches on it, playing a scale of sorts. To do this, use the same tongue motions you do when you whistle. It may take a while, but eventually you'll get it.

Now, overtones. Finger low C, and try, while keeping the low C keys pressed, to play a higher pitch. Do not adjust your embouchure for this! Just use your tongue going up and down. With work, high C will pop out. Play exercises with every low note on this. Play the low note, then while keeping the fingering jump to the high note, then push the fingers for the high note, then switch fingers to the low note but play the higher pitch, then drop down to the lower pitch. This is slightly confusing, but if you write out what I just described on a music staff it will make more sense.

With practice on overtones and the mouthpiece, you will gain much greater control of the air. When your tongue goes up, the air in your mouth goes faster, which is useful for high notes. Always keep your embouchure fairly loose, and don't tighten up for high notes, or low notes. Keep it open and loose, use lots of air, and CONTROL.

Synopsis:
With all of this, unless it's a mechanical difficulty with the sax itself, I am thinking that possibly this is an embouchure issue. You're probably just too tight for tenor, which requires you to have a much looser embouchure than alto. Nevertheless, the activities I mentioned above are very useful to gain better control and sound on all saxophones.
 
Sue, your index finger trick seems to work, so does your pop-key thingy, S'licker. I sometimes have this problem with the low notes, especially if I'm trying for a smoother tone but these tricks have improved things. Thanks. I'm ok playing louder or subtone....

The overtones are quite interesting - being someone who enjoys 'sounds' for their own sake, even if they are for no-ones ears than mine, I have played around with overtones on the lower notes. It's quite easy to get the octave above, also the perfect fifth above the root note. It's possible, with a bit of control, to play the root note then 'overlay' or mix the octave or fifth with the root note, kind of playing two notes at once. While the root note is being played at a constant volume, it's also possible to fade in the overtone, then fade it out again, or fade in the overtone then fade out the root note. Typically, these are all gradual changes through a long note.

Whether this has any practical application I don't know, but I suppose it all helps with controlling the horn, and it certainly scares guitarists at funky jam sessions >:)

Cheers, Bob
 
Bob Green wrote:
Whether this has any practical application I don't know, but I suppose it all helps with controlling the horn, and it certainly scares guitarists at funky jam sessions >:)

It certainly does. Subconciously, you will learn to put your tongue where it "should" be, even when fingering the actual pitch.And as you mentioned, it's all about control. Overtones are also useful as long-tone type exercise, and all the benefits that go with them.

Really, they help with lots of things. train your larynx, throat and mouth muscles to adjust to different notes and produce optimum pitch and tone. They also help with bending and voicing notes. And of course, there's altissimo.
 
Bob Green wrote:
While the root note is being played at a constant volume, it's also possible to fade in the overtone, then fade it out again, or fade in the overtone then fade out the root note. Typically, these are all gradual changes through a long note.

Joshua Redman does this on his "Passage of time" album, end of the first track "Befroe" into "free Speach" It freaked me out when I didnt realise what he was doing when I first heard it a few years back - and I'm not even a guitarist.

Oli
 

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