The place of the saxophone in rock music

Bobby G · Jul 6, 2006

As opposed to rock'n'roll music.

There doesn't seem to be much place for the sax in rock music, which is usually dominated by electric guitars and keyboards. Although some bands use a horn section here and there, or have sax on certain tracks e.g. Pink Floyd, an individual sax-player as a full-time member of a band is not that common. Ok, there are a lot of horns in r'n'b and soul bands, but not a great deal in rock that I can think of.

I suppose the most obvious one would be Clarence Clemons with Springsteen (obvious rock'n'roll roots), or maybe Andy Mackay with Roxy Music (again, a lot of rock'n'roll plus classical and avant-garde influences). Also Lee from Madness springs to mind.

In the prog-rock era some bands featured a sax, especially King Crimson (Ian McDonald, later replaced by the marvellous Mel Collins), and David Jackson with Van der Graaf Generator, who's saxes and flute were often used to colour arrangements in a mainly guitarless, organ-led group as well as for soloing. Also Geoff Leigh and Tim Hodgkinson with avant-rock pioneers Henry Cow, Elton Dean with Soft Machine, and Dick Heckstall-Smith who if memory serves was a member of Colosseum.

More recently, Morphine had an interesting line-up of drums, 2-string slide bass and bari sax playing a kind of warped indie-pop, and currently the Zutons have Abby the sax-player.

Most of these are worth a listen, but are there any more saxers of note in rock(ish) bands, past or present?

lee_ · Jul 7, 2006

As you stated, few rock era bands included regular horn sections, which only made the ones who did more memorable. Think Chicago and Blood, Sweat & Tears, I guess. The very first BS&T album had a killer horn section that included Randy Brecker on trumpet and Fred Lipsius on alto sax.

I recall one very good 70s rock album from Ian Hunter (who I think came out of Mott the Hoople), called "All American Alien Boy." It featured a very young David Sanborn on alto sax and a very young Jaco Pastorius on bass.

Bobby G · Jul 7, 2006

Oh yeah, there was a short-lived brass-rock thing here around 1970, no doubt influenced by BS&T. I think its demise was probably economic more than anything as the bands tended to have quite a lot of members so would have needed to sell lots of records to survive. Which they didn't

The bands I remember, and these from Island records samplers Bumpers and El Pea, were If and (the) Alan Bown (set). The brass sections were very much an integral part of the sound rather than being grafted on as an afterthought. Both bands had some great players who no doubt kept going after their respective bands' demise.

hey! I just remembered! What about Davey Payne out of (IanDury &) the Blockheads. Great band....

Bobby G · Jul 7, 2006

And of course the wonderful Baker Street by Jerry Rafferty with its soaring saxophone courtesy of Bob Holness.

Not forgetting Hazel O'Connor's big hit (Stay Now, was it?) with the extended sax solo. That wasn't one of yours was it Pete?

Pete Thomas · Jul 7, 2006

At 06:55:36 AM 07/07/06, Bob Green wrote:
And of course the wonderful Baker Street by Jerry Rafferty with its soaring saxophone courtesy of Bob Holness.

Are you sure? I always thought that was Raff Ravenscroft on alto. (I was told by Pete Zorn that he was booked for the session but had a cold, so Raff did it instead

Not forgetting Hazel O'Connor's big hit (Stay Now, was it?) with the extended sax solo. That wasn't one of yours was it Pete?

Unfortunately not.

ken · Jul 7, 2006

At 11:32:07 AM 07/07/06, Pete Thomas wrote:

Are you sure? I always thought that was Raff Ravenscroft on alto. (I was told by Pete Zorn that he was booked for the session but had a cold, so Raff did it instead

The Bob Holness thing was, from what I recall, a load of twaddle put about by a newspaper as a joke or something. I always thought that it was Rafael Ravenscourt, but obviously that should have been Ravenscroft.

spike · Jul 7, 2006

The story that I know on this is that it was originally written as a guitar solo, but the guitarist didn't show up, so they tried to do it with harmony vocals ooohs and aaahs but that wasn't too good, so Raf nipped out to his car, got his alto and put down the super soaring searing sexy sax solo we all love and know so well.

The Bob Holness thing was a joke report in NME, would've been good though had it been true, Bob Holness in a glitter suit and high heels on top o the pops. far out man.

Bobby G · Jul 7, 2006

Blame Stuart Maconie of NME for the Holness thing, I was interested to see if the myth persisted.

rhysonsax · Jul 7, 2006

The Hazel O'Connor song was "Will You ?" with a gorgeous alto solo by Wesley Magoogan. I liked it so much I transcribed it and have a play-along track to go with it. Unfortunately I can't persuade the band I'm in to give it a go.

I think that Wesley Magoogan was in dispute with Hazel O'Connor about composer credits to the song, because he had such a big part in making it memorable. Sadly he had an accident with a circular saw (ouch) and isn't playing any more, but I think he may still be in music.

http://vicky100.freeweb.hu/wesleymagoogan/wesleymagoogan.html

There was also John Helliwell with Supertramp, played some really nice stuff but I don't know if you'd call it Rock.

I've got a good double CD called "The sax album" which has a whole range of famous tracks from the 60s to the 90s, James Brown through Average White Band to Psychedelic Furs, INXS and George Michael. Mostly the sax players were guests or session men I suppose but some are full time band members.

All the best

Rhys

Bobby G · Jul 7, 2006

I always had a bit of a problem with that Hazel O'Connor song - the sax is fab, but there is something kind of lumpy and ham-fisted about the rest of it. Just my opinion, of course.

Rhys, I would definitely put John Helliwell down as an integral part of the Supertramp sound, and would include them in the vast musical pantheon that is rock.

Also, the original Jethro Tull guitarist, Mick Abrahams, had a band called Blodwyn Pig (LP Ahead Rings Out featured a large pig's head with a jazz Woodbine in it;s mouth) who featured a sax quite strongly, name of Lancaster.

Sometimes I really wish I could forget some of this stuff, y'know!

redmancba · Jul 8, 2006

I'm not sure if it always qualifies as rock, but the Dave Matthew's Band has a sax player in it; LeRoi Moore is his name. He doesn't play on every track, but is a permanent member of the band and does play on most.

Conor.

wolfmaiden · Jul 8, 2006

seeing as you mentioned Tull, Bob.......have you checked out the rock flute on 'Roots to Branches'......makes me want to take up flute even more!!.....ah...have to be self-taught though.....and that darn Boehm fingering.......

...and, more 'acid jazz', 'rock/fusion', r&b - check out Liquid Soul (Mars Williams on tenor)....and, of course, more r&b with Tower of Power, and Brotherhood of Groove (Jeff Watkins, from JB band - saw him live - man, he burns!!!)....
....not much else for rock though, I guess.....got the Hazel O'Connor - on relistening after 20+ yrs, sax kinda sounds muted.....but Andy McKay - wow - check out his solo albums!
But - can always revert to the 80s and the Ska revival in the UK!!

Bobby G · Jul 11, 2006

The place of the saxophone in New Romantic music (not that I ever was one); both Spandau Ballet and ABC had fully paid-up saxers, although they were never exactly over-featured.

Come to think of it there were a few horns around in the early/mid 80's, bands like Pigbag and Rip Rig & Panic both seemingly intent on wringing much joyful noise out of various saxes.

My favourite from that era is the blazing tenor towards the end of the Waterboys 'Whole of the Moon', a song I love above almost all others. There's not too many notes there, but it's incredibly powerful and emotional, and does the 'hairs-on-the-back-of-the-neck' thing for me every time. Antony/Andy Thistlethwaite, I think his name is....

oliver_bentley · Jul 12, 2006

IMHO saxophones and rock are two wonderful pals, especailly at the moment.

For example, Accoustic Ladyland, influenced heavily by hendrix, with Pete Warham on sax, and Seb roachford (of Polar Bear fame, but dont let that put you off), one of the best young UK drummers to be found. (plus synth and bass - not a guitar in sight, yet is some of the heaviest, dirtiest, distroted rock I've heard in a while, bar screaming thrash bands, but lets not go there) They were in Carlisle (of all places - who comes here now really) last night. Had their album for a while, and this was the first time saw them live - the energy was amazing. Heavy punk/Jazz has to be heard to be believed.

On the more pop side off the top of my head Elbow, Fun Loving Criminals Zutons, Less than Jake, Ordinary Boys, Supertramp, even green day at one point, feature saxes.

Bobby G · Jul 17, 2006

Hope I'm not floggin' a dead 'orse here, but some more notable full-time saxers in rock bands, all from the psychedelic/progressive era spring to mind;

There's Jim King, on the early Family LP's like Music in a Doll's House, also Nik 'I just dig freaking around on saxophones' Turner with Hawkwind. Finally, someone who's name I forget, was a member of Audience with Howard Werth back in the early 70's, who were notable for having no guitar other than an amplified Spanish nylon-strung.

More obscurities/rarities as and when...

Bobby G · Jul 17, 2006

Mark-Almond. Somewhere in the pantheon of rock, but towards jazz. More early 70's stuff, featured Jon Mark on acoustic guitar and Johnny Almond on saxes. I saw them with an expanded line-up featuring Dannie Richmond (from Charles Mingus' band) on drums. Very good band, nothing here to hurt your ears.

Bobby G · Jul 18, 2006

At 23:27:30 17/07/06, Bob Green wrote:

Finally, someone who's name I forget, was a member of Audience with Howard Werth back in the early 70's, who were notable for having no guitar other than an amplified Spanish nylon-strung.

More obscurities/rarities as and when...

It was..... uh.... Keith Gemmell........ ouch.... later of........ ahhhh... Stackridge!

Nurse, the straitjacket, he's talking to himself now....! He's started replying to his own posts. This could be serious!

I... just... can't..... stop it... argh!

Yours, N.L. Retentive

Bobby G · Oct 30, 2006

I wasn't sure whether to put this in the sax-player's section, but thought it fit better here; Van Morrison, as well as being a pianist, guitarist and extraordinary songwriter, can blow a nice alto when he wants to. Kinda warm-sounding and not too complicated, but sits nicely in the tune. I really like the 'Caledonian Soul' sound with the horn section of two tenors, f'rinstance on St. Dominic's Preview. Isn't there a live album of this band?

Also, Dave Bowie used to blow a bit, in fact he was sax-player and singer in his first band when he was about 17. He pops up here and there on some of his 70's recordings playing, I think, alto. Whether it's produced intentionally to sound that way or not, his sound is kind of buzzy and almost plasticky.

Cheers, Bob

peter_fitton · Oct 30, 2006

Bob Green wrote:

Also, Dave Bowie used to blow a bit, in fact he was sax-player and singer in his first band when he was about 17. He pops up here and there on some of his 70's recordings playing, I think, alto. Whether it's produced intentionally to sound that way or not, his sound is kind of buzzy and almost plasticky.

Cheers, Bob

Bowie's solo on Subteraneans from Low is a big favourite of mine. Nothing particularly complicated but it's just beautiful and eerie, like the whole track.

Peter

rhysonsax · Oct 31, 2006

David Bowie used to have sax lessons in the 60s from Ronnie Ross, my all time favourite baritone player. I also believe that Bowie played on a Grafton plastic alto at one time (he'd have been plain David/Davey Jones then).

I heard a story that Bowie was producing for Lou Reed when he recorded "Walk on the Wild Side". It was Bowie who got his old teacher Ronnie Ross to come in and blow the fabulous bari solo at the end of that track.

Ronnie Ross was also a key element of the sound of Matt Bianco in the early 80s. I remember having a laugh when they were on Top of The Pops. One week they were miming away all sharp looking pop youngsters with one middle-aged jazzer wielding the baritone. Two weeks later they were further up the charts, but the baritone solo was now being mimed by a sharp looking pop youngster wielding a ............. Trumpet !

Rhys