Teaching Student choosing the teacher’s method

[lydian]

Hi @lydian Thanks as always.I think id really struggle without the words..notes are a bit different when transposed to d major..would i have to take it up an octave?

I’d probably take the A section up an octave but leave the bridge where it is. I’d leave out the eighth notes in the last half of the bridge. But you should do whatever sounds best to you. If your low register sounds great, keep it all as is. It’s your gig.

My thought posting the lead sheet is not necessarily for you to use this one example ver batim. But use the idea as a template for getting all your 12 page scores down to one or two pages. I know if my sax quartet or big band read off the score it would be very impractical. So we all use much more readable individual parts. So take your scores as a starting point for writing just your sax part in traditional notation. In the process, you may even accidentally memorize the part. It’s a win win.

 

[eb424]

Hi @skeller047

you say

'However, I am concerned about the idea of writing note names above lyrics, I see that as a huge dead end. I was really trying to help eb424 find a way out of the dilemma.'

Can i ask why? I have to read and trnspose the score and am only condensing whats on it. Ok not the rhythm but the backing track provides that..To some degree the syllabals in the words also provide this, hence my little game above.

I took umbrage at @Pete Thomas terminology 'dictating' and have only just realised I find some words offensive..

I think it's the implication of some dogmatic fly by night ( i.e. me) telling a teacher whose knowledge I want, what to do.. it isn't like that..
At the mo i have a specific goal. To play in front of others, i.e. the care home. I need a teacher who is flexible enough to "accept" that the way i do it is not "traditional" but is a means to an end. It has it's benefits..I have to read the score, transpose, it takes an hour per song and im ready to play / practice with a backing track. It has taught me key sigs, and introduced me to the circle of fiths and given me an understanding of it..subsequently I have understood the importance of scales.. and how they relate to it..

 

[eb424]

I’d probably take the A section up an octave but leave the bridge where it is. I’d leave out the eighth notes in the last half of the bridge. But you should do whatever sounds best to you. If your low register sounds great, keep it all as is. It’s your gig.

My thought posting the lead sheet is not necessarily for you to use this one example ver batim. But use the idea as a template for getting all your 12 page scores down to one or two pages. I know if my sax quartet or big band read off the score it would be very impractical. So we all use much more readable individual parts. So take your scores as a starting point for writing just your sax part in traditional notation. In the process, you may even accidentally memorize the part. It’s a win win.

You know your good, quite understanding and you challenge me in a positive way. People seem to think transfering the whole score over to my way is "bad" but its all about reading the score initially. Trouble is @lydian that its the whole song i need words at the mo as the syllabals give me the beat...but I also understand that i need to move on to a traditional way of playing to play with others..so ill take that version to my teacher and practice syncopation.

 

[eb424]

It’s nice that it works for you. It doesn’t for everyone. I’ve tried this on a number of occasions over the last 50 years. If I stop playing the 20 or so tunes for a few weeks after I’ve "got them down" they’ve gone. The last thing I want to do is play the same tunes for the rest of my life so I gave up the futile task of memorising stuff and enjoyed playing instead. If I have to play the correct notes for a particular gig then written dots serve me very well.

if you were playing the whole piece and the score was 12 pages how do you do it? Leadsheet?

 

[lydian]

You know your good, quite understanding and you challenge me in a positive way. People seem to think transfering the whole score over to my way is "bad" but its all about reading the score initially. Trouble is @lydian that its the whole song i need words at the mo as the syllabals give me the beat...but I also understand that i need to move on to a traditional way of playing to play with others..so ill take that version to my teacher and practice syncopation.

If you can keep the melody going in your head and play along, then you indeed do not need the notation. So save the notation for the lessons and keep using that inner ear of yours.

 

[MarkSax]

I am an autodidact on the sax. I started with The Complete Saxophone Player books and because I just wanted to be able to play tunes I would write down the notes on top of the bars A, B....etc because I already knew the songs I wanted to play. The drawback of that is that I couldn't play the scores I didn't know, had no idea of proper rhythm/timing and was very slow learning, especially improv and the different chords and the circle of fifths. It took me 8 years to learn what a taught person would learn in two with a good teacher. My 'This Masquerade' sounded very different from the original score. And my tone was awful, very quacky, although my embouchure was OK.
I then started to learn scales reading music, then with the help of backing sheets on YouTube learnt to count and play in time with whatever was in front of me. I could play certain tunes by ear but they were limited.
I took a few lessons from a pro when he wasn't touring but he had no method, and he tried to dive straight into impro by ear which I couldn't do because I did not have the basics. I believe that to be able to play like a trained amateur the foundations have to be solid and that can only be obtained by taking lessons and being able to read music.
I can read music pretty fluently now although I do get stuck when the majors suddenly change to minors with a lot of accidentals or too crowded bars, too many notes on one bar, I definitely need to improve my speed.
In brief, being able to read music helped me to play in time and be able to improvise on anything, as well as play scores I had never heard before. And best of all, play with other people. I still have BIG problems transposing. The inability to read sheet music was very limiting after all my known repertoire was exhausted, and what lessons gave me were timing, speed and tone. With hindsight, I should have started with a teacher before exploring the sax on my own. JMO.

 

[thomsax]

In most cases there is a reason why sax players are autodidact and make the sax journey on their own; lack of money, geographical "limits", personal "limits", other interests that intrude on the sax playing, playing and interest in a style that you don't share with so many others, "heredity and environment" ..... . So what should I do? Give up the sax or teach my self? Of course with the right teacher I would have been different. But I also liked the freedom that I got when I taught myself. So I did many mistakes but I liked, still do, to try to play Rock & Roll Saxophone. I learned most songs by ear and then I played what I heard. I'm a shy guy so I learned to play in the background; riffs and fillings. Listened to the chord changes and make the songs a little bit more "full-body and bigger" and playing when the singer didn't sing. And I was in easy genres as well. 8 -or 12 bar blues, Rock & Roll songs with few chords, R&B tunes that I could use the sing scale..... Simple but I like my self!!! Later on I met other sax players that had a different back ground. Of course, it was not easy for a self taught country boy when he met city slickers that had been studied at the "jazz institute". Needless to write, but there were some conflicts. And I always backed off. But I don't understand why I shouldn't develop a big sound or sing? I'm blessed with big lunges, strong core, decent voice and ear ..... Instead I heard that I was out out tune and too loud, a Clarence Clemons wanna be, played in keys that was out of fashion. played old fashioned solos ,,,,,!!!! . The woodshed became my rescue. And the woodshed is open for other odd sax players as well. "Free for all" other rocksax honkers.

I'm weak for songs about loneliness, telephone booths ...... . Been there. Chasing coins so I could call home and checking how my family was doing, my fox terrier ... . Loneliness and melancholy became important ingredients in my live. And it's not a bad thing.

Here is "Lonesome For A Dime". A song by Buster Benton in concert B. 12 bar blues with a quick four. "Not so much to say about it, just play" said a sax player when I told him that I was going to sing and play it. Here is a version with Sven Zetterberg. Nice pumping sax and good solos?

View: https://youtu.be/bzpG-xQkiCk

 

[mizmar]

It took me 8 years to learn what a taught person would learn in two

I wouldn't be 100% sure of that.
I take the mildly reductive^∆ view that music playing takes some specially trained bits of brain; time keeping, rhythm, music memory, (relative)pitch. If you've been learning form a young age, you built/developmed these capacities and probably take them for granted^§. Starting from scratch as an adult; it's just going to take time. Lots of time and work. Resuming as an adult, maybe less time. Very individual.
Sure learning to read music and/or play by ear are tremendously useful as skills. But I'm not sure they're going to seed up basic grey mush shaping by much, if that's what a student needs.

^§I suspect that a lot of good musicians take this so much for granted that they don't really understand why a new learner can't just hear things the same.

^∆ actually, I'm more about emergence then reduction.

 

[Colin the Bear]

If the words are needed for phrasing, learn the words.

Lead sheets often have words.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I took umbrage at @Pete Thomas terminology 'dictating' and have only just realised I find some words offensive..

Well it's just another word to describe what the thread is about, ie because someone pays the teacher they should be able to choose the teaching method. I'll edit the word in that post, I didn't mean to offend anyone - I just thought it was relevant to the thread topic and meant the same. Sorry.

I think it's the implication of some dogmatic fly by night ( i.e. me) telling a teacher whose knowledge I want, what to do.. it isn't like that..

The thread was not meant to be about the merit of your way of learning tunes, but just about the idea of being able to tell the teacher how to teach you. Two very different topics.

Granted there are bits of the thread that seem to have gone off topic and are about reading notation vs writing the note names above the lyrics, maybe I should split that into its own topic as it is a whole different discussion in itself and quite interesting - but not the topic of this thread.

 

[eb424]

Well it's just another word to describe what the thread is about, ie because someone pays the teacher they should be able to choose the teaching method. I'll edit the word in that post, I didn't mean to offend anyone - I just thought it was relevant to the thread topic and meant the same. Sorry.

The thread was not meant to be about the merit of your way of learning tunes, but just about the idea of being able to tell the teacher how to teach you. Two very different topics.

Granted there are bits of the thread that seem to have gone off topic and are about reading notation vs writing the note names above the lyrics, maybe I should split that into its own topic as it is a whole different discussion in itself and quite interesting - but not the topic of this thread.

Don't change the word @Pete Thomas its my stuff...I can be a sensitive sole ask @Colin the Bear ..no need for an apology..

Writting notes vs reading ... is it technically off topic..My own experience of teachers accepting and adapting to alternative methods was the reason I replied to @Bisaxual...

 

[Pete Thomas]

Writting notes vs reading ... is it technically off topic..

Yes. The topic is about the student choosing the teacher’s method as opposed to the teacher deciding the best method.

It’s not about debating the merits if one method vs another,

 

[Pete Thomas]

Back on topic:

I think one thing that complicates this is the question is the idea that when paying a teacher you paying for their time. Or, are you also paying for the experience and knowledge they have gained over many years.

I suppose there are many teachers who are happy to take the money and do whatever they are asked - as in some professions - but there are also teachers who might not feel comfortable doing that.

Part of what they are rewarded by is the satisfaction of seeing a student flourish under their guidance. In that case it brings us back to @skeller047 's example:

If a teacher says “You need to learn your scales” and a student says “I just want to play music”, then we have a tendency these days to find a way to accommodate the student. Why? Doesn’t the teacher know what he or she is doing? As a teacher, I would say “OK, that’s a valid attitude. Foolish, but valid. I can’t help you. That will be $50.”

Sadly the student might go away thinking that's a bad teacher whereas the reality is that is most likely to be a very good teacher.

We see a similar thing on forums: Someone asks a question and get some good answers from very experienced players. However the answers may involve things like doing long notes, breathing exercises, overtones, ear training etc. when all along the person just wanted to be told to buy the ligature that would solve all their problems.

 

[eb424]

For me it's dependent on what your going for.
1. To learn the sax..
2. To overcome a certain stuckness.

The issue for me is that the journey with a teacher is out of most adults financial reach..but again i veer into a different topic..one that I have already approached..Darn this is hard maybe I should stick to yes / no answers.
For me theres also a difference between being told to play scales and being shown why its important.

 

[MarkSax]

I wouldn't be 100% sure of that.
I take the mildly reductive^∆ view that music playing takes some specially trained bits of brain; time keeping, rhythm, music memory, (relative)pitch. If you've been learning form a young age, you built/developmed these capacities and probably take them for granted^§. Starting from scratch as an adult; it's just going to take time. Lots of time and work. Resuming as an adult, maybe less time. Very individual.
Sure learning to read music and/or play by ear are tremendously useful as skills. But I'm not sure they're going to seed up basic grey mush shaping by much, if that's what a student needs.

^§I suspect that a lot of good musicians take this so much for granted that they don't really understand why a new learner can't just hear things the same.

^∆ actually, I'm more about emergence then reduction.

I basically needed someone to guide me through, tell me where I was going wrong, biting, not adding flex and colour to my notes….etc because none of the people close to me made the effort. Having a teacher even a half decent one would have made a difference.

 

[Pete Thomas]

For me it's dependent on what your going for.
1. To learn the sax..
2. To overcome a certain stuckness.

1. I think it's fair to say that learning the sax is broadly the point of saxophone lessons.
2. The teacher should evaluate what the certain stickiness is and supply a solution. If they cannot do that they should say so (ideally before booking the lesson and taking your hard earned money)
3. There is no 3

The issue for me is that the journey with a teacher is out of most adults financial reach..

Good point. However I was under the impression you had a job. It's true that private lessons may seem expensive and it is a sad fact that there are so many people who cannot afford them.

For me theres also a difference between being told to play scales and being shown why it's important.

There cannot be any argument that those are different things so yes. You can get by without being told why, but I think it's a good idea to know the reasons you are told to learn certain things. Sometimes it is easy to explain, other times it can be tempting to say "because I said so," and that may work with some people but not for others.

I have had arguments debates on forums about whether long notes have any point. It can be a really tricky one to answer when someone says "why not just play lots of ballads that include long notes?"

(NB: let's not go off on that one - if you want to discuss please start a new thread please)

 

[MarkSax]

Yes. The topic is about the student choosing the teacher’s method as opposed to the teacher deciding the best method.

It’s not about debating the merits if one method vs another,

I get it but to I think any half decent teacher brings a plus to learning the sax, whether one agrees with their method or not. One has to adapt and get the most of what one can have/reach within the constraints of time/money/distance and availability.

 

[eb424]

1. I think it's fair to say that learning the sax is broadly the point of saxophone lessons.
2. The teacher should evaluate what the certain stickiness is and supply a solution. If they cannot do that they should say so (ideally before booking the lesson and taking your hard earned money)
3. There is no 3

Good point. However I was under the impression you had a job. It's true that private lessons may seem expensive and it is a sad fact that there are so many people who cannot afford them.


There cannot be any argument that those are different things so yes. You can get by without being told why, but I think it's a good idea to know the reasons you are told to learn certain things. Sometimes it is easy to explain, other times it can be tempting to say "because I said so," and that may work with some people but not for others.

I have had arguments debates on forums about whether long notes have any point. It can be a really tricky one to answer when someone says "why not just play lots of ballads that include long notes?"

(NB: let's not go off on that one - if you want to discuss please start a new thread please)

1. I think it's fair to say that learning the sax is broadly the point of saxophone lessons.

Hmm maybe thats where I am going wrong I use them for musical issues, notation, timing, articulation, phrasing, in connection to playing the sax..in that case should your teacher play the same type of sax as you??? ( just on topic??)

I do have a job but like many older players outgoings are greater than incommings..I would want at least 2 lessons a month to make it work my teacher does get frustrated..Also in my other hobby fishing I dont try to get a pro angler to teach me..hmm big fish little fish..I guess there is a guilt complex when older..I would gladly pay for a young son to have lessons if there was a chance of him becomming a pro musician..The value of a teacher is massive..

 

[Pete Thomas]

Hmm maybe thats where I am going wrong I use them for musical issues, notation, timing, articulation, phrasing, in connection to playing the sax..in that case should your teacher play the same type of sax as you??? ( just on topic??)

I think any instrumental lessons may include things other than strictly instrumental technique, and often people seem to confuse the two things. Both student and teacher should be clear about what they want to learn. I always quote a post I saw on SOTW which was something like:

I'm an absolute beginner on saxophone and as advised I just got a teacher who has got me starting off with 2 5 1s.



There are of course often other skills that can be worth learning (depending on your aims) such as theory, impro, reading, stagecraft or whatever. If you are at college you may get all those as separate lessons, in the real world, in your situation, it makes sense that the teacher may include any or all of those things as relevant. When this happens there will be less time on actual saxophone technique, but the tradeoff is the other things (if required) can help you be an all round musician.

But the teacher should discuss these things in advance.

 

[thomsax]

The topic is about the student choosing the teacher’s method as opposed to the teacher deciding the best method.

And the answer is:
.... yes, students should be able to choose methods and teacher.
.... and even the parents should be able to choose methods and teacher, if the school is paid by taxes.

Both my girls quit when they were around 14 years old. The didn't like to be in small rehearsal room with older men. Nothing happened, but musicians jokes are often adult jokes.

They were doing fine on their instruments, clarinet respective trombone.