Saxophones Saxophones, rarely discussed

[JayeNM]

I think I have one of those Olds... next to my Indiana in the picture

Yup, nice one. You don't have any Martin Committees do you ? A side by side of a Super vs a Comm 1 or 2 would be interesting

 

[JayeNM]

I challenge all people in this forum to demonstrate me the superiority of mark 6 against super 20 by King, buescher big B, and another branding.

For me, you can't confirm that, it's litteraly impossible

To you first comment, the 'superiority' is in the eye of the player, so it is, in the end, subjective.

Human nature isn't particularly sophisticated, really. When something manages to attain a cred or reputation, quite simple 'people want it'. Whether a VI as the penultimate pro horn, or a Yama 23 as the absolutely best student horn....etc, etc. Instruments, cars, bicycles, watches, whatever product....

VI is a great design....do I know good players who shopped for horns and had the VI on the list but after trying examples of several brands went with a different horn ? Yeah, I know many...

 

[skeller047]

To you first comment, the 'superiority' is in the eye of the player, so it is, in the end, subjective.

Human nature isn't particularly sophisticated, really. When something manages to attain a cred or reputation, quite simple 'people want it'. Whether a VI as the penultimate pro horn, or a Yama 23 as the absolutely best student horn....etc, etc. Instruments, cars, bicycles, watches, whatever product....

VI is a great design....do I know good players who shopped for horns and had the VI on the list but after trying examples of several brands went with a different horn ? Yeah, I know many...

I think the reason the Mark VI got the level of street cred it had back in the day was it was the ONLY truly pro-level horn being made in the 1960’s. Do not flame me with stories of Conn, King and Buescher - or any of the more stodgy European brands. By the 1960’s the American manufacturers had deteriorated, and the European brands like SML, Buffet and Keilwerth were considered lesser quality in one aspect or another. In other words, in the 1960’s, at least in the USA, if you were buying a new professional saxophone, Selmer Mark VI was the default choice.

That is no longer the case. In some ways that’s sad, as I like my Selmer alto and tenor very much. Today’s Selmers don’t hold a candle to them, even though they are “better” mechanically and intonation-wise. In other ways it’s great because there are many choices for a fine top quality saxophone these days.

However there are only so many SBA’s and Mark VI’s out there, and the world’s population has more than doubled since the ‘60s. I wish there was a clear winner or two in the saxophone world, but there really isn’t. Several choices for great instruments, but none of them are better, at least for me, than my Mark VI tenor or SBA alto. One or two are almost as good. (Things are a little better, regarding quality and innovation, in the flute and clarinet lands, but one needs an excellent wallet to survive there.)

I hope in the future we see some new developments in saxophone manufacturing. I am encouraged by the continuing growth of Eastman, and Yanagisawa is the current keeper of the QC flame. Let’s hope that they and others keep upping their game.

 

[ghostler]

Human nature isn't particularly sophisticated, really. When something manages to attain a cred or reputation, quite simple 'people want it'. Whether a VI as the penultimate pro horn, or a Yama 23 as the absolutely best student horn....etc, etc. Instruments, cars, bicycles, watches, whatever product....

True. It makes for an interesting world. Those who can see past simple fad preference issues to make personal choices according to what they want versus others want have truly been set free.

 

[jcn664]

To you first comment, the 'superiority' is in the eye of the player, so it is, in the end, subjective.

Human nature isn't particularly sophisticated, really. When something manages to attain a cred or reputation, quite simple 'people want it'. Whether a VI as the penultimate pro horn, or a Yama 23 as the absolutely best student horn....etc, etc. Instruments, cars, bicycles, watches, whatever product....

VI is a great design....do I know good players who shopped for horns and had the VI on the list but after trying examples of several brands went with a different horn ? Yeah, I know many...

There is a significant nuance to what I have to say about the Mark VI.

Is the Mark VI an excellent—even exceptional—saxophone?

My answer is yes, and it always will be.

However, is the Mark VI *the* best saxophone?

No—certainly not. Quite simply, there is no "best" one; there is only the one you prefer, and the distinction between "best" and "preferred" is worlds apart.

Of all the saxophones I’ve tested, I prefer my Conn F Mezzo-Soprano. Can I therefore claim it’s the best saxophone of all time? Of course not, because someone else might dislike both its ergonomics and its tone.

To assert that the Mark VI is the best shows a lack of perspective and amounts to sheer fanaticism.

Is the Mark VI worth its price tag?

The answer is both yes and no. Yes, at a fair value—a price that reflects its true worth.

No, when the cost is driven by details that don't affect the sound—factors stemming from the speculation that plagues the Mark VI market. In my view, a Mark VI alto should generally cost around €4,500, and a tenor a maximum of €8,000.

Yet, we see Mark VIs on the market going for between €20,000 and €30,000 for absurd, speculative reasons.

The situation in this market is extreme.

Are there good, less expensive alternatives to the Mark VI?

Of course there are.

Couesnon Monopole Conservatoire, Pierret, Buffet Prestige (S1, S2, S3), etc.

Is the Mark VI overrated? Unfortunately, the answer is yes—and it’s sad to say, but yes—because many people buy them at insane prices, thinking they’ll play better on a Mark VI simply because great artists played them. They think they’re buying a piece of their favorite artist's sound, but that’s not how it works; it’s a huge mistake, and it just fuels the hype for an absurd, imaginary effect.

Is the Mark VI worth recommending?

Yes, absolutely—it remains an excellent saxophone.

However, not when the price is excessive; they are often sold at unaffordable prices, especially in the US and even more so in Japan.
It is worth noting that importing a used French instrument—or coming to France to buy one—can sometimes cost less than buying it in the US.

Does the Mark VI really live up to its legend?

No, it’s a bit of a mirage. Yes, it is an excellent saxophone, but—once again—there are other saxophones, sometimes cheaper ones, that sound just as good.

I often hear people say they play Pierret or Beaugnier horns and find them incredible—even superior to their own vintage Mark VIs. So, the Mark VI is indeed something of a mirage. That said, is it disappointing or bad? Far from it. It may be excellent, but the high regard in which most people hold it elevates it beyond mere excellence to the realm of absolute perfection—which isn't the case, as the Mark VI is far from flawless.

Now yes i see many saxophonist sold this own mark vi to pay couesnon, sml, or pierret/beaugnier and one second instrument with or just hollidays with

And it's not shock me

 

[lig]

@jcn664

You've got to make up your mind. You finally admit the VI is an excellent horn. Clearly the market dictates the prices. A thing is only worth what somebody else is willing to pay. A lot of people are willing to pay a good amount of money for Mark VIs. That is fact, not fiction.

The VI market isn’t going to collapse because you don’t deem them worthy of the premium they command. 😀


You keep railing on about how the MK VI isn't the best horn but I don't actually recall anyone posting that it *is* the best horn ever.

We each have our own personal favorites. That we can agree on.


Do you think an F Mezzo is really worth the high prices they command because of the tone? I certainly don't.

The scarcity of F Mezzos is what makes them valuable. Let’s be realistic - if they were that amazing Conn would have sold more of them. 🙂

I'd love to have an F Mezzo for the sheer collectability of it but wouldn't really play it outside of my home because I'm not a classical musician and to my ears they sound a little stuffy and insubstantial.

Naturally that's just my opinion. That doesn’t invalidate your opinion of the F Mezzo at all. It’s simply a different viewpoint.

What I don't do is repeatedly make posts slagging off the F Mezzo because I don't think it is worth what they cost.

I'm confused as to why you continually do that vis a vis the MK. VI.


Who are you to state definitively that the VI is not deserving of its legendary status?

Being a legend doesn't necessarily mean it is the best saxophone of all time - it is exactly what it says - the Mark VI is undeniably a legendary instrument.

The VI is not a mirage. It's a legendary icon.

 

[ghostler]

You've got to make up your mind. You finally admit the VI is an excellent horn.

But compared with an Ishimori? Heh! 😉

 

[lig]

But compared with an Ishimori? Heh! 😉

I suppose it is ironic that I, an admittedly very lucky fella with more than one VI in the stash plays none of them on the regular.

My VI altos are too nice for the kind of gigs I play and honestly for me - the Ishimori tenor works better than my VI for the way I play and the funk/jazz/r&b repertoire that is my wheelhouse.

Furthermore I rarely play without amplification and effects which minimizes the differences between horns even further.

 

[JayeNM]

I think the reason the Mark VI got the level of street cred it had back in the day was it was the ONLY truly pro-level horn being made in the 1960’s. Do not flame me with stories of Conn, King and Buescher - or any of the more stodgy European brands. By the 1960’s the American manufacturers had deteriorated, and the European brands like SML, Buffet and Keilwerth were considered lesser quality in one aspect or another. In other words, in the 1960’s, at least in the USA, if you were buying a new professional saxophone, Selmer Mark VI was the default choice.

Well...respectfully you sorta deserve to get quasi flamed at least ....because this isn't really quite 100% accurate. One can argue the perception of Conn and Buescher (pre buyout)'going downhill' in the 60's ( perception only....reality is bunk to that) certainly, so it is not unfair to say popularly speaking, the glory days were over....but the S20 remained a top notch pro player and quite popular into the 70's. So you are ersatz there.

This I know only because over the decades whenever I came across a person who had actually purchased their 6 in the mid 60's-mid 70's....I asked them what other horns were in the running/had they tried/considered (mind you these were the days when music shops in major municipalities stocked the top brands so they were available for playtesting). The S20 was always the one, or one of a few, in their answer...I cannot remember when it was omitted from the answer.. Understandably. Its tone was great, its intonation was great and the keywork and ergos were the best 'non-Selmer" style mechanisms of its time, IMHO. So it WAS there, a market contender....

That aside....to say the 6 was 'the only professional model'....again, that is pretty subjective and was really more desire/perception than reality'. I still believe that, as it cemented its rep in the 50s, and by the end of the decage most jazz and classical pros had migrated to them, the rep was established. Simply put, people wanted to play and own what the greats owned.
Now, again....from the BA thru the 6, it was a damn great design, really....so that popularity had a foundation. If it had not been excellent, less folks would have bought them.

 

[JayeNM]

There is a significant nuance to what I have to say about the Mark VI.

Is the Mark VI an excellent—even exceptional—saxophone?

My answer is yes, and it always will be.

However, is the Mark VI *the* best saxophone?

No—certainly not. Quite simply, there is no "best" one; there is only the one you prefer, and the distinction between "best" and "preferred" is worlds apart.

Of all the saxophones I’ve tested, I prefer my Conn F Mezzo-Soprano. Can I therefore claim it’s the best saxophone of all time? Of course not, because someone else might dislike both its ergonomics and its tone.

To assert that the Mark VI is the best shows a lack of perspective and amounts to sheer fanaticism.

Is the Mark VI worth its price tag?

The answer is both yes and no. Yes, at a fair value—a price that reflects its true worth.

No, when the cost is driven by details that don't affect the sound—



Yes, it is an excellent saxophone, but—once again—there are other saxophones, sometimes cheaper ones, that sound just as good.

to your first point, you are basically saying what I am....subjectivity of the player is always present.

To your second point....absolutely VASTLY OVERPICED nowadays....same with any legendary grail model of instrument which has acheived that status.

Lastly...it is not the TONE ("sound" as you say) which necessarily sets it apart. Many if not most Selmer aficionados readily admit, tonality-wise, the SBA actually eclipses the 6. Rather, it is a package/combination of a number of things they rolled up into one model....ergos, key response, blowing response, and tonality.

So to argue 'other horns are just as 'good' because they 'sound better'....they may sound better, indeed ....doesn't acknowledge the other aspects/qualities which one weighs.

Nowadays, some of that is moot, as asian makers have been able to offer a variety of models which are equals or arguably 'surpass' the 'legend'. But as we see, despite this.... folks still are willing to pay thousands more for the legendary model....

 

[Stocker]

Go figure that a thread titled "Saxophones, rarely discussed" ended up about the Mark VI...

 

[LostCircuits]

Yup, nice one. You don't have any Martin Committees do you ? A side by side of a Super vs a Comm 1 or 2 would be interesting

I know, we were talking about this when I got it from SaxDaddy(?) a few years ago

 

[LostCircuits]

Go figure that a thread titled "Saxophones, rarely discussed" ended up about the Mark VI...

Even worse, I think we only talked about altos.

And what about Pierret Artiste and the likes? The Pierrets are absolutely beautiful players and to look at.