Saxophones Saxophones, rarely discussed

[JayeNM]

I think I have one of those Olds... next to my Indiana in the picture

Yup, nice one. You don't have any Martin Committees do you ? A side by side of a Super vs a Comm 1 or 2 would be interesting

 

[JayeNM]

I challenge all people in this forum to demonstrate me the superiority of mark 6 against super 20 by King, buescher big B, and another branding.

For me, you can't confirm that, it's litteraly impossible

To you first comment, the 'superiority' is in the eye of the player, so it is, in the end, subjective.

Human nature isn't particularly sophisticated, really. When something manages to attain a cred or reputation, quite simple 'people want it'. Whether a VI as the penultimate pro horn, or a Yama 23 as the absolutely best student horn....etc, etc. Instruments, cars, bicycles, watches, whatever product....

VI is a great design....do I know good players who shopped for horns and had the VI on the list but after trying examples of several brands went with a different horn ? Yeah, I know many...

 

[skeller047]

To you first comment, the 'superiority' is in the eye of the player, so it is, in the end, subjective.

Human nature isn't particularly sophisticated, really. When something manages to attain a cred or reputation, quite simple 'people want it'. Whether a VI as the penultimate pro horn, or a Yama 23 as the absolutely best student horn....etc, etc. Instruments, cars, bicycles, watches, whatever product....

VI is a great design....do I know good players who shopped for horns and had the VI on the list but after trying examples of several brands went with a different horn ? Yeah, I know many...

I think the reason the Mark VI got the level of street cred it had back in the day was it was the ONLY truly pro-level horn being made in the 1960’s. Do not flame me with stories of Conn, King and Buescher - or any of the more stodgy European brands. By the 1960’s the American manufacturers had deteriorated, and the European brands like SML, Buffet and Keilwerth were considered lesser quality in one aspect or another. In other words, in the 1960’s, at least in the USA, if you were buying a new professional saxophone, Selmer Mark VI was the default choice.

That is no longer the case. In some ways that’s sad, as I like my Selmer alto and tenor very much. Today’s Selmers don’t hold a candle to them, even though they are “better” mechanically and intonation-wise. In other ways it’s great because there are many choices for a fine top quality saxophone these days.

However there are only so many SBA’s and Mark VI’s out there, and the world’s population has more than doubled since the ‘60s. I wish there was a clear winner or two in the saxophone world, but there really isn’t. Several choices for great instruments, but none of them are better, at least for me, than my Mark VI tenor or SBA alto. One or two are almost as good. (Things are a little better, regarding quality and innovation, in the flute and clarinet lands, but one needs an excellent wallet to survive there.)

I hope in the future we see some new developments in saxophone manufacturing. I am encouraged by the continuing growth of Eastman, and Yanagisawa is the current keeper of the QC flame. Let’s hope that they and others keep upping their game.

 

[ghostler]

Human nature isn't particularly sophisticated, really. When something manages to attain a cred or reputation, quite simple 'people want it'. Whether a VI as the penultimate pro horn, or a Yama 23 as the absolutely best student horn....etc, etc. Instruments, cars, bicycles, watches, whatever product....

True. It makes for an interesting world. Those who can see past simple fad preference issues to make personal choices according to what they want versus others want have truly been set free.

 

[jcn664]

To you first comment, the 'superiority' is in the eye of the player, so it is, in the end, subjective.

Human nature isn't particularly sophisticated, really. When something manages to attain a cred or reputation, quite simple 'people want it'. Whether a VI as the penultimate pro horn, or a Yama 23 as the absolutely best student horn....etc, etc. Instruments, cars, bicycles, watches, whatever product....

VI is a great design....do I know good players who shopped for horns and had the VI on the list but after trying examples of several brands went with a different horn ? Yeah, I know many...

There is a significant nuance to what I have to say about the Mark VI.

Is the Mark VI an excellent—even exceptional—saxophone?

My answer is yes, and it always will be.

However, is the Mark VI *the* best saxophone?

No—certainly not. Quite simply, there is no "best" one; there is only the one you prefer, and the distinction between "best" and "preferred" is worlds apart.

Of all the saxophones I’ve tested, I prefer my Conn F Mezzo-Soprano. Can I therefore claim it’s the best saxophone of all time? Of course not, because someone else might dislike both its ergonomics and its tone.

To assert that the Mark VI is the best shows a lack of perspective and amounts to sheer fanaticism.

Is the Mark VI worth its price tag?

The answer is both yes and no. Yes, at a fair value—a price that reflects its true worth.

No, when the cost is driven by details that don't affect the sound—factors stemming from the speculation that plagues the Mark VI market. In my view, a Mark VI alto should generally cost around €4,500, and a tenor a maximum of €8,000.

Yet, we see Mark VIs on the market going for between €20,000 and €30,000 for absurd, speculative reasons.

The situation in this market is extreme.

Are there good, less expensive alternatives to the Mark VI?

Of course there are.

Couesnon Monopole Conservatoire, Pierret, Buffet Prestige (S1, S2, S3), etc.

Is the Mark VI overrated? Unfortunately, the answer is yes—and it’s sad to say, but yes—because many people buy them at insane prices, thinking they’ll play better on a Mark VI simply because great artists played them. They think they’re buying a piece of their favorite artist's sound, but that’s not how it works; it’s a huge mistake, and it just fuels the hype for an absurd, imaginary effect.

Is the Mark VI worth recommending?

Yes, absolutely—it remains an excellent saxophone.

However, not when the price is excessive; they are often sold at unaffordable prices, especially in the US and even more so in Japan.
It is worth noting that importing a used French instrument—or coming to France to buy one—can sometimes cost less than buying it in the US.

Does the Mark VI really live up to its legend?

No, it’s a bit of a mirage. Yes, it is an excellent saxophone, but—once again—there are other saxophones, sometimes cheaper ones, that sound just as good.

I often hear people say they play Pierret or Beaugnier horns and find them incredible—even superior to their own vintage Mark VIs. So, the Mark VI is indeed something of a mirage. That said, is it disappointing or bad? Far from it. It may be excellent, but the high regard in which most people hold it elevates it beyond mere excellence to the realm of absolute perfection—which isn't the case, as the Mark VI is far from flawless.

Now yes i see many saxophonist sold this own mark vi to pay couesnon, sml, or pierret/beaugnier and one second instrument with or just hollidays with

And it's not shock me

 

[lig]

@jcn664

You've got to make up your mind. You finally admit the VI is an excellent horn. Clearly the market dictates the prices. A thing is only worth what somebody else is willing to pay.

You keep railing on about how the MK VI isn't the best horn but I don't actually recall anyone posting that it *is* the best horn ever.

We each have our own personal favorites. That we agree on.


Do you think an F Mezzo is really worth the high prices they command because of the tone? I certainly don't.

The rarity of the F Mezzo is what makes it valuable.

I'd love to have an F Mezzo for the sheer collectability of it but wouldn't really play it outside of my home because I'm not a classical musician and to my ears they sound a little stuffy and insubstantial.

Naturally that's just my opinion.

What I don't do is repeatedly make posts slagging off the F Mezzo because I don't think it is worth what they cost.

I'm confused as to why you continually do that vis a vis the MK. VI.


Who are you to state definitively that the VI is not deserving of its legendary status?

Being a legend doesn't necessarily mean it is the best saxophone of all time - it is exactly what it says - the Mark VI is undeniably a legendary instrument.

The VI is not a mirage. It's an icon.

 

[ghostler]

You've got to make up your mind. You finally admit the VI is an excellent horn.

But compared with an Ishimori? Heh! 😉

 

[lig]

But compared with an Ishimori? Heh! 😉

I suppose it is ironic that I, an admittedly very lucky fella with more than one VI in the stash plays none of them on the regular.

My VI altos are too nice for the kind of gigs I play and honestly for me - the Ishimori tenor works better than my VI for the way I play and the funk/jazz/r&b repertoire that is my wheelhouse.

Furthermore I rarely play without amplification and effects which minimizes the differences between horns even further.