Saxophone material and finishes affecting the sound

Totally agree with you, Lee. There's room for us all - some will want the shiny golden horn, some will claim unlaquered/silver/bronze or whatever sounds 'x', whatever 'x' is, some (like me) don't really mind what it looks like, or whether it's 'the' horn to own, as long as it works ok and makes a sound I like, hence my Yamaha's will do me. Mind you, I saw someone once with tarnished, unlacquered Mk VI alto and tenor, and they looked like ****! Ok Ken? That's the final, final word.....
 
I'm not really sure if this is quite the right thread for my tale of woe but it's sort of related so here goes.

Today I travelled over to a music shop in a nearby West Country market town to view a vintage saxophone that they had for sale. I had a thousand quid in my back pocket. I was there to buy. Things started good when the salesman appeared from the back room with what I could see was the correct original case. I think it's always a good sign if the original case is still with the instrument. Sadly, my heart started sinking when the case was opened to reveal the most shoddy relacq I've ever had the misfortune to see.

Here was a beautiful, handmade piece of craftsmanship that had been ruined by incompetent buffing which had damaged keys and guards. The lacquer itself had, in places, seemed to have been applied over a layer of dust. I ask why relacquer anyway ? What's so wrong with a bit of worn lacquer, a bit of brass showing ?

On the way home, still with my thousand quid, it occurred to me that this vandalized horn which had apparently been languishing at the shop for almost two years may never, even to the end of time, find a new owner. It wouldn't appeal to someone looking for a new saxophone and it certainly wouldn't appeal, due to the damage inflicted, to a vintage saxophone ponce like me.

In a way, this does belong here because due to the poor quality finish this particular and undeserving instrument has received it's future sound has been affected in that, in the future, it probably won't be making any.

PS. Before anyone tells me, I do know stripping can all be done chemically, it's just such a pity who ever committed this crime didn't.
 
SaxSectionLeader wrote:
Well, I have an older Selmer that is pretty beat up in appearance but still sounds great. Since I just made jazz band my dad thinks I need to have it refinished so I'm not the only one up there without a bright shiney horn. I don't want it refinished unless I can get a guarantee (sp?) that it won't affect the tone...

NO NO NO do not do it! First off you will loose all the value that that horn has. Old Selmers were so great because of the lacquer that they used. If this is a MK6, MK7, or SBA you are a fool to re-lacquer it.
 
Ref54 wrote:
SaxSectionLeader wrote:
Well, I have an older Selmer that is pretty beat up in appearance but still sounds great. Since I just made jazz band my dad thinks I need to have it refinished so I'm not the only one up there without a bright shiney horn. I don't want it refinished unless I can get a guarantee (sp?) that it won't affect the tone...

NO NO NO do not do it! First off you will loose all the value that that horn has. Old Selmers were so great because of the lacquer that they used. If this is a MK6, MK7, or SBA you are a fool to re-lacquer it.

Seconded, DON't do it.
 
I wouldn't do it either, especially if it's soinding and playing great.

I'm not sure how much difference finish makes to the sound (barring possible improvements from a de-lacquer job), but my two altos do sound very different; the Yamaha 62 is characteristically quite bright but will also go quite dark and smooth under my expert control, whereas my silver-plated 40's Dolnet is generally smoother-sounding and quieter with a bit more of that vintage tone.

It has been said that silver plate produces this silkier tone, which to me is debateable - I tend to think the differences between the YAS and the Dolnet are probably more to do with the construction, basic materials and internal dimensions. Of course, to prove this I'd need two identical Dolnets with different finishes, but even that may not be conclusive as two 'identical' horns can sound quite different, even with the same mouthpiece and reed on each.
 
The point of the story is who gives a F*** what your horn looks like you want to be noticed for how you play not what the axe you play on looks like

(more asterisks supplied by admin)
 
Absolutely. Sound is everything.

However, changing the finish of any sax will affect its sound. I have recently stripped the lacquer off a few of my saxes (as some of you may know) and can confirm absolutely that the sound has changed. Overall I would say that the tone is now a 'warmer' sound with less shrill overtones.

I once owned a 1930s French tenor sax (Cavore) which was silver plated. The sound from that was (as described elsewhere) 'silky' (!?) but there were areas where the plating had worn. I made the stupid mistake of sending it away to be re-plated. When it came back, it sounded dull, lifeless and 'boxy'. As they say: "if it aint broken...." Needless to say, I sold it shortly afterwards as, to my ears, I'd killed it.

But back to the issue of construction materials and finishes generally.

Over the years I have played a great many types of sax made of a variety of materials in a range of different finishes and can confirm that the resulting sound is very hard to measure due to 'possible' differences within makers, models and set-ups. However, from those that stand out, here are my personal impressions.

I once tested a selection of Mark VI Selmers. 1950s unlacquered; 1960s flaked lacquer and modern fully lacquered as well as a 'custom built' solid silver model. The silver one was made for a Middle Eastern chap and weighed as much as a fridge!. Apart from being unwieldy it sounded no different at the time from any of the others. Certainly no different as to cause a significant improvement. I do have to say though that the filthy brown ones did have a more 'complex' waveform, with a softer, darker sound compared to the modern ones which were brighter, most noticeably in the top end.

I have also owned several of the post-war plastic saxes known as the Grafton. Again, in a comparison test they sounded no different from any metal sax of the same era. The plastic seemed fully capable of producing a clear, resonant sound across its full range.

In some ways I agree with various previous posts: the individual players technique and expectations play a great part and in the hands of an experienced player, any horn can be made to bring out a variety of contrasting colours. I think that the most important factor is personal preference. I, myself, favour the older and dirtier looking horns. They bring an aura of 'mystique' like they have lived a life on the road, basking in dressing rooms in smoky clubs, lying on the top of grand pianos and being hauled around on a tour bus. They were there, and they have a story to tell. -in my imagination!

I feel that the worst 'age' for a sax is that point at which the lacquer is pitted, flaked or partly worn. That's like a teenager with shoulder length hair: neither smart and short nor fashionably long. Those are the horns that need a facelift. Mind you! I wouldn't dream of having them relacquered if they were a vintage model with beautiful engraving, as the process sometimes goes a long way to destroying the character. One wouldn't varnish a Stradivarius, or paint a Bechstein. (Or re-silver plate a tenor! grrr. )

Brand new, or carefully cared for horns look fantastic and sound just as good, if not better than older, more lived-in cousins, but for me - give me 'grunge' every time. THE most important thing, however, is how it sounds, and if that works for you... embrace it, and forget how it looks.
 
Ref54 wrote:
The point of the story is who gives a F*** what your horn looks like you want to be noticed for how you play not what the axe you play on looks like

(more asterisks supplied by admin)

Absolutely! You could also add that it doesn't really matter what horn you use, as long as it fits you and you can get the sound you want.
 
I just thought of another factor that seems to significantly affect the sound.

The Yamaha 23 that I've been tinkering with recently is made from a fairly heavy guage brass. Not unlike the thick, solid brass that Mark 6 Selmers have. Compared to the 1950's Martin that I also play which is quite (disturbingly) thin. I say 'disturbingly' as I once put a whole patch of dents in it by over-zealously beating it with a clave block at a gig. I thought I was adding to the percussion, but all I was doing was panel-beating my horn. The sound comparison of the two truly reflects the thickness of the metal used. The 23 (and the Mk6s) is thick and broad, whereas the Martin sounds light and breezy. Very distinctly. Same reed, same mouthpiece, two sounds.
 
I have to admit, haven`t read the entire thread. So if I repeat something that has been said just tell me.

I have measured a great deal of speakers and cabinets over the years and tried to match theory, simulation, prediction and actual measurements. Since we are talking soundwaves, airpressure/wavefront, propagation and ways to interfere with the variables we have a musical instrument.

So here are my 2cents:
Laquer can have a huge effect on dampening albeit on a very narrow band or two or three. A saxophon is a huge Helmholtz-resonator.
Much of the sound acutally propagates out through the brass. It does so through 5cm of MDF cabinet too. I suspect that our skulls, nasal cavities, chest do radiate some of the sound too. Some materials speed up the speed of sound, some slow it down. Brass speeds it up, changing the frequency at the same time. Above a certain yield you get chaotic behavior of membrane. The sax cone turns into a giant speaker cone. Once we have established that the sax is a giant speaker cone and horn - Then we can simulate it with rough parameters:

Alto:
Chestvolume: 20l (We use this as closed chamber variable 3-30l wont make a difference, think lungvolume and then some)
Horntype: Conical
Hornlength 79cm
Hornmouth 30cm2
Hornstart 1cm2

We get a functioning compression Horn with an average 100db per watt input over a range of 200hz to 5500hz.

The curve is very wavy. Don`t worry this is not a sign of a bad design or a flaw. This is just a static load put on the horn, we automatically blow a bit harder or a bit less - depending on which frequency we are. Also I dit no measure the shortening of the horn but in its whole lenght only. Our effort is to approximate the ideal flat output. Some of us probably can do this extremely well.

We have high impedance (resistance) @220, 550 and 800hz. 200hz and below resistance drops to almost 0. That means we have to blow really hard to make a sound. That is why horns do not sound very dynamic in the lower frequencies. We just dont have the airvolume to counter the non resistance, maybe a compressor would help...

The horns fs is around 200hz. Everything we play below this fs is well beyond the design parameters of an Alto saxophon. But we do anyway.

Does somebody have some webspace to post the diagram?
 
Ollie, you say you haven't read all the thread, I would strongly suggest you read the post from kymarto (Toby), as he seems to have plenty of scientific evidenence to show that a saxophone does not behave like a speaker cabinet.
 
Hi Pete
I read kymartos post. I agree completely with what he says. The data I collected through a simulation of an Alto horn @1000hz says the same. Oscillation in any given material or combination thereof - follows the same law. So bare brass and coated brass will vary. If it matters to the human ear it becomes fuzzy - then we enter psychoacoustics.
A sax is technically a compression horn - the same principle and physics that applies to PA-Horn-Tweeters. As such we can simulate and get data close to what is actually going on. If I do an RTA of an Alto horn @1000hz and do it on another one - the Waterfall readout will be similiar in a broadsense in x,y, ms, but completely different in its buildingblocks off axis. The 1000hz tone will have harmonics, 2nd to 8th order attached to it. Whatever harmonics are taking the upper hand - meaning this Altosax has a pleasing sound and the other one sounds like an empty beer can hit with a screwdriver.
Uneven harmonics are the ones which our brain is setup not to like. More of those and we dislike the sound. Think screeching chalk, fork scratching a plate.
 
Another take...


From an interview with Charles McPherson by Mel Martin


Q. "How do you feel the King differs from the Selmer?"

A. "It has a warmer sound, but not like an old Conn. The metal seems thinner. I don't know what the composition of the metal is, but it seems lighter. It's like a belltone where you hear a "ding" and then you hear the "wa-wa-wa" afterwards. The "ding" would be the front of the attack and then the sound decays. With the Selmer you hear more of the ding and less of the decay. The King rings more and speaks faster. Cannonball would play his King like that. He'd "explode the note". A Selmer note seems heavier."


(The Helmholtz Resonators ...a great band name for a sax ensemble. Surely?)
 

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