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Saxophones Rolled toneholes on German and Asian saxes

Hassles

Member
Messages
42
Location
Australia
The Hohner name has since been sold on for sax branding. I have a Hohner for sale on eBay at the moment, and it's a generic Chinese sax.
The Hohner name was never sold as you've referred but rather Hohner employed Max Keilwerth to design and build saxophones for their company - these were made for about 23 years - consult Bassic-Sax pages
 

jonf

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,659
Location
Betelgeuse
The Hohner name was never sold as you've referred but rather Hohner employed Max Keilwerth to design and build saxophones for their company - these were made for about 23 years - consult Bassic-Sax pages
I'm well aware of the Hohner saxes referred to on Bassic Sax. However, the name has since also been used, as I mentioned, for Chinese generic saxes.
 
OP
thomsax

thomsax

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,498
Location
Sweden
Kholert are the most underrated Tenor saxes on the market.. My partner has a Kholert 57.. (SBA Like) .. I bought the Winnenden tenor a few yars ago when it came up for sale on SOTW.. What a bargain!! which was overhauled in the enclosed video.. These are great horns.. regards

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8up9ErgvFk
Great saxes. German saxes (post WWII) are quite common here in Sweden. Seems to be a saxes that music shop on the countryside/smaller towns sold. I saw a Kohlert Winnenden alto (no neck) in good shape at a flea market. The owner asked 200.00 s e k for the Kohlert.
 

Hassles

Member
Messages
42
Location
Australia
I ain't really sure what your comment actually refers to but....I have a couple of Kohlerts, one Czechoslovakian alto and a German tenor - both great. hmm, you're not getting confused with the new Kohlert branded Asian made horns that have NO relationship with the German company that went bankrupt in 1966 are you?
 

jonf

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,659
Location
Betelgeuse
Chinese "generic" saxes using Hohner ? ? ? ? details please
This is an old thread. It was almost four years ago that I briefly owned a Chinese-made sax bearing the Hohner name. It was a standard bottom of the market sax, not pretending to be a 'proper' Hohner or anything, just using the name. It played OK, it sold OK. I sold it for what it was, a basic student instrument.
 

Hassles

Member
Messages
42
Location
Australia
This 'was' an old thread but still possesses it's relevance. A Chinese made Hohner - now that is interesting. Buffet have their horns made in china these days and as long as the materials and quality control is good so will be the horns.
 

peterpick

Member
Messages
367
Location
Lewes, East Sussex
keilwerths had rolled toneholes on all the classic horns and probably still do. Kohler too. Kohlert did. hohner presidents from max keilwerth had them up until the late 60's or early 70's. conns had them. SML and couesnon had them in france, but not always. same with courtois. i think rolled holes are more difficult to make and might indicate a superior construction for that reason - SML's 'standard' models from the gold medal era have straight holes and were cheaper. as for what use they are.... hmmm.... some people say the roled tonehole means LESS of the pad touches the hole's rim and therefore they are LESS likely to stick.... i'm not so sure. they are not sharp and will probably wear pads less quickly. they are difficult to level. i buy more vintage saxes than a sane man would and i look for rolled toneholes, i somehow like them. i do not think they can alter the tone of the sax, i cannot think of any physical reason that would be true. the best sounding saxes i have, however generally do have them, but i've got a couesnon tenor that sounds great and does not have rolled holes. (sigh).
 

Stephen Howard

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,670
Location
UK
some people say the roled tonehole means LESS of the pad touches the hole's rim and therefore they are LESS likely to stick
It's exactly the opposite.
Think about it - you're essentially putting a wide band on top of a standard tonehole, which typically doubles (at least) the surface area that's in contact with the pad. I've heard some folks suggest that because the rim is rolled, the pad only contacts with the apex of the roll - and it would...if the pad was made from something extremely stiff, like glass. But pads aren't stiff, and will deform around the roll.
You only have to look at the difference in the tonehole impression in the pad to see that rolled toneholes have significantly more contact with the pad - and the more contact there is, the more likely that pad is to suffer from stiction.
 

Hassles

Member
Messages
42
Location
Australia
Many German saxophone manufactures made 'some' of their saxes with Rolled Tone Holes at one point. Early Weltklang saxes often had RTHs, The G.H. and F.X Huller's etc etc etc. Few manufactures soldered on the tone hole rings. Buescher had a very brief dabble with soldered on tone holes (al la Martin) but I am not aware of any German maker who soldered on their tone hole rings other than the contemporary Keilwerths. Rolled Tone Holes have both Pros and Cons.
 

peterpick

Member
Messages
367
Location
Lewes, East Sussex
yes
It's exactly the opposite.
that's just what i said, but this thoroughly trained professional more or less snapped my head off about it. i suppose they were thinking about glass, stone or sheet steel pads, which i rarely use. as for 'hassles' i've come across fx hullers with rolled holes but not any gh hullers like that yet, i think. fx hullers (world) are better anyway. the thicker contact might suggest a better or more reliable seal.... but i've little evidence of that either.
 

Stephen Howard

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,670
Location
UK
that's just what i said, but this thoroughly trained professional more or less snapped my head off about it. i suppose they were thinking about glass, stone or sheet steel pads, which i rarely use. as for 'hassles' i've come across fx hullers with rolled holes but not any gh hullers like that yet, i think. fx hullers (world) are better anyway. the thicker contact might suggest a better or more reliable seal.... but i've little evidence of that either.
It never fails to amaze me how many repairers seem not to have a basic grasp of physics and/or engineering.

As for a better or more reliable seal - well, you have to take into account the reduced surface pressure of the pad against the tonehole rim.
If you ask a lady to walk across a lawn in her bare feet you'll see little evidence of her path save from some temporarily flattened grass.
If you ask her to do the same while wearing stiletto heels you'll see a line of holes. Same downward force - but applied over a smaller surface area.
The one advantage of rolled toneholes is that by spreading the load they act like mini shock absorbers, so your fingers get a slightly more comfortable ride over the keys. But only slightly.
 

peterpick

Member
Messages
367
Location
Lewes, East Sussex
interesting, stephen. i have noticed the stilleto effect - it also applies with horses who always wear stilletoes, of course, and make a poor job of spreading their weight on hooves, leaving deep holes all over the footpath.
 

Stephen Howard

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,670
Location
UK
interesting, stephen. i have noticed the stilleto effect - it also applies with horses who always wear stilletoes, of course, and make a poor job of spreading their weight on hooves, leaving deep holes all over the footpath.
Yup, that's how it works.
So for a given downward pressure from your finger, a narrower tonehole rim will give a tighter seal.
 

Stephen Howard

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,670
Location
UK
So is there a better theoretical solution than either rolled or straight tone hole rims?
Good question, In fact a very good question indeed.

I don't honestly know the answer. I would have said "Make the rim as thin as practically possible" but that's just a straight rim - and we pretty much have that now anyway.

Shootin' the breeze, I'd suggest that some sort of 'active' seal would be an improvement. I can't actually think of a way of doing this off the top of my head, but it would imagine some sort of flexible magnetic seal would be an option - though you'd have to go some to balance the springing so that the magnetic field didn't slow the keywork down.

Of course, you could just make the pads out of Klebfon - and that would solve all your problems...except the biggest one, which is that Klebfon hasn't been invented yet, and I have absolutely no idea what its physical properties might be.
 

Vetinari

Senior Member
Messages
1,041
Location
East Manchester
There is a very soft plastic material used the mask of a CPAP ( continuous positive airway pressure) machine and this has to make an air tight seal against the face and allow, in my case, for the beard. Maybe if pads could be made from this, it's washable and non-sticky.

13192
 
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