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Saxophones Rolled toneholes on German and Asian saxes

thomsax

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Sweden
I'm trying to find out about German manufactors and rolled toneholes. My -56 has Klingsor (Hammerschimdt) has rolled toneholes. I have some Keilwerth made saxes from the mid 50's and I thought the tonholes were rolled but when I take a closer look they are maybe not rolled? Did Keilwerth started with RTH à la soldered-on rings in the mid 50's? I have a Dörfler & Jörka 1963 tenor with RTH (soldered on rings). How about Kohlert (Winnenden) and Hohner (Tossingen)?

Is it just Keilwerth and some other Asian brands/manufactors that are making saxes with "RTH". In the late mid/late 90's UMI did saxes with "RTH" as well. I'm trying to do some writng about UMI.

A Conn 14M baritone (UMI, Nogales, USA) from the 90's. This bari was based (a more updated version with a more modern key design) on the 12M and 13M (low A) was based on 11M.



 
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222
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Dartmoor, SW UK
My F. Kohler (not Kohlert) baritone is German and has what look like rolled holes. Made in mid '50s as far as I know.
Here's a couple of pictures I happen to have to hand.
15561807288_74fd840121_o.jpg
15562415850_8f964e6bc5_o.jpg
 

majordennis

Senior Member
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Gone West
I have a Hohner President with RTH, lots of info about these on Helen's Bassic Sax site, can't do any photos just yet as I've just finished the re-furb and set up but was defeated by the bell key balance and had to let the Woodwind Exchange sort it out. It was quite interesting in so much as when Stuart opened the case he saw the eyebrow keyguards and thought at first sight it was a King, interesting horn.
 

Ads

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I fail to understand why RTH is made such a fuss of in the sax world - they`re almost standard on flutes , even cheap ones have them, real ones too (not add-on rims bodged on) . the only advantage to them I can see is that they denote a period when the best Conns were made (IE:- if its got RTH then you`re onto a winner) ....... otherwise they`re hard to level and make the sticky pad issue worse
 
Messages
222
Location
Dartmoor, SW UK
I fail to understand why RTH is made such a fuss of in the sax world
Presumably something to do with the Conn connection you mentioned, but I'd assume the manufacturers had some reason for doing it in the first place - I'd have thought it was more difficult (and therefore more expensive) to make rolled holes than just grinding the rim flat. Yes, for maintenance purposes it does seem a silly thing to do.

they`re almost standard on flutes , even cheap ones have them
So they do! Just had a look at my wife's flute - never noticed before. In fact I'd never heard of rolled tone holes at all until I started looking for a baritone sax a year or so ago, but I have ended up with a horn that does have them, for better or worse (no sticking pads at the moment).
 
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thomsax

thomsax

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Messages
3,460
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Sweden
My F. Kohler (not Kohlert) baritone is German and has what look like rolled holes. Made in mid '50s as far as I know.
Here's a couple of pictures I happen to have to hand.
View attachment 4664 View attachment 4665
Nice saxes! Wellbuilt, like most German saxes, and I think F Köhler saxes have rolled toneholes. I use to play with a guy who is playing a Köhler tenor and that one has real rolled toneholes. Great sounding sax.
 
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thomsax

thomsax

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Sweden
I have a Hohner President with RTH, lots of info about these on Helen's Bassic Sax site, can't do any photos just yet as I've just finished the re-furb and set up but was defeated by the bell key balance and had to let the Woodwind Exchange sort it out. It was quite interesting in so much as when Stuart opened the case he saw the eyebrow keyguards and thought at first sight it was a King, interesting horn.
I've just seen one Hohner and that was a horn, from mid 60's, wo rolled toneholes. They discontinued the saxophone manufactoring in the late 60's early 70's? Interesting and elegant saxes. Double socket neck joint and keygaurds à la King Zephyr .... .
 

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North West UK
Who made the Hohner Presidents, AFAIK they didn`t have any sax making facilities in their German factory - from what I remember reading it was all free reed stuff like Accordions, Melodeons Harmonicas, Melodicas etc , Maybe recorders were made there .
 

majordennis

Senior Member
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Gone West
According to the Bassic Sax site Max Keilwerth was the driving force behind the Hohner saxophone department and manufactured Presidents from 1949 to approximately 1970, if you are into that sort of thing it's a very interesting read and sheds further light on the Keilwerth family as instrument manufacturers.
 
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thomsax

thomsax

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Max Keilwerth was the man behind Hohner saxes? I don't know were and how they were made. I think there is some "relationship" in all West Germany manufactors except Hammerschmidt. I think the borrow ideas and helped each other. Julius Keilwerth (Nauheim), Max Keilwerth (Tossingen) and Richard Keilwerth (Marknuekirchen).
http://bassic-sax.info/version5/vintage-saxes/european-made-saxes/hohner-president

I sometimes have a feeling that the saxophone manufactoring world after WWII was small. I think it was just a few manufactors over the world that had a full saxline (soprano, alto, tenor, baritone ....) and different levels (beginner, intermediate, professionals). And who developed, manufactured and sold saxes under thier own names?
 

majordennis

Senior Member
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449
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Thanks for adding the link, should have thought of that myself, the attention to detail on the one I have is amazing, RTH, sculpted bell brace and key posts, double socket neck and trill keys I have yet to explore, needle springs (very sharp) which I tested a few times with my fingers during cleaning, the bell key assembly seems a bit heavy in operation and on re-assembly I could not get a decent balance on them so left it to the Woodwind Exchange to finish the job off, looking forward to trying it next week.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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afik Hohner made their own saxes. Richard concentrated on clarinets, but still sells some saxes, not sure who makes them. Pre war, Max was out to beat Julius in making the best saxes. It seems to have continued post war once they got set up in W Germany.

Don't forget that pre WWII Kohlert and the Keilwerths were in Graslitz, Cz. Their factories were nationalised and they were forced to work their as employees until they got to W Germany. Similar situation in Markneukirchen, but these guys weren't allowed out.
 

Ads

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According to the Bassic Sax site Max Keilwerth was the driving force behind the Hohner saxophone department and manufactured Presidents from 1949 to approximately 1970,.
Sounds about right - when I was in my Squeezebox GAS Phase, I saw loads of vids of Hohner factory walkarounds from all ages even back to the 50s and it was all Free reed stuff and recorders etc Maybe even some classical guitars but no electric guitars or anything made of metal
 

spike

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Quick Blick in and info from my Archives: According to Günter Dullat - Hohner made the President as Alto and Tenor between 1948 and 1967. After WWII Max Keilwerth became responsible for the development of saxophone department. Since he had worked previously for the Adler and Hüller companies it explains the similarities between the instruments from these three manufacturers.
 
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thomsax

thomsax

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Sweden
Which manufactor stamped their saxes with "Pure Tone ..." below rh thumbrest?

Keilwerth (Nauheim), Kohlert (Winnenden) and Hohner (Tossingen) made saxes with soldered on and beveled toneholes à la Martin (not Comm toneholes). The story says that they did this in the late 40's and early 50's while they were waiting for the machines that did drawn toneholes.

How about the Asian "RTH"?
 

jonf

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Betelgeuse
The Hohner name has since been sold on for sax branding. I have a Hohner for sale on eBay at the moment, and it's a generic Chinese sax.
 
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