SYOS

Saxophones Rolled toneholes on German and Asian saxes

Stephen Howard

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I thought just to replace the leather on a pad
The problem with using such a soft substance as a replacement for leather is that it needs to be of a certain thickness in order to take advantage of any capacity it might have to deform and adapt to a potential leak. This tends to lend the key a rather squishy feel - and such substances usually don't have very good wear resistance.
 
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thomsax

thomsax

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I think that rth on modern saxes is more about to take out a higher price! And a way to increase the value of the companay as well? Less about tone/sound.
 
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thomsax

thomsax

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Anybody seen a sax with soldered on (silver, hard or soft) toneles with rolled tone holes? I haven't. RTH seems to be on saxes with extruded ("drawn", hammered out, pull) toneholes.
 

InWalkedBud

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I have a couple 1960s Kohlerts and a UMI Armstrong with RTH. Collectors seem to like 'em, though many techs don't. Helen's really the one you need to chime in here.
 

Stephen Howard

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Anybody seen a sax with soldered on (silver, hard or soft) toneles with rolled tone holes? I haven't. RTH seems to be on saxes with extruded ("drawn", hammered out, pull) toneholes.
I haven't - and I don't think it would be economically feasible.
I could be quite wrong, but it's my understanding that the toneholes are drawn, levelled and rolled in the same operation. This makes sense from a procedural point of view as the tonehole will already be aligned with the machine. To have to do this at a later stage would require a lengthy set up - and to put a roll on on a tonehole before its mounted on a horn would be even more complicated...at least in terms of workholding.
 

altissimo

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here are a few patents that may tell us something about how Conn made their tone holes

although I can't see anything specific about rolled tone holes - I'm guessing they were influenced by the rolled edges on tin cans and biscuit tins etc.
Technically it'd probably be possible to make the tonehole chimneys separately with the rolled rim and then solder it on, but they were presumably thinking in terms of speed of production.

what's intriguing is the adoption of various patented features of Conn saxophones by some european manufacturers - not just rolled tone holes, but micro tuners and the rhomboid shaped left hand little finger cluster on the 6M... I don't suppose we'll ever know why, except that they felt like it..

since neoprene was mentioned earlier in this thread, I'd just like to point out that neoprene and other synthetic rubber materials like nitrile and teflon used for gaskets and o rings all come in different hardnesses measured on the Shore scale, so it's possible that a suitable material could be found for sax pads...
I think I've seen something about goretex pads for clarinets too...
Here's an article by a bloke who got a sax with pads made from closed cell neoprene rubber, used typicaly in skin diving suits
"Incredibly, these neoprene/skin diver suit pads from the 1970's have all retained their original suppleness, usefulness, and seal. Incredibly, thirty years later, none have needed replacement, and the pads work as well as when they were first installed, despite decades of regular playing and use "
he doesn't mention any extra sponginess, but he's only using 1/8th inch thick rubber on a card backing
 

Vetinari

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Do'nt know about whether rolled tone holes make any difference to playability, tone or intonation, but I feel that from an aesthetics and engineering view, the rolled edge looks as though somebody took the effort to finish the job and not just leave a raw cut off edge.
 

Stephen Howard

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Do'nt know about whether rolled tone holes make any difference to playability, tone or intonation, but I feel that from an aesthetics and engineering view, the rolled edge looks as though somebody took the effort to finish the job and not just leave a raw cut off edge.
That made me chuckle :) - given how many times I've stripped a rolled tonehole horn, placed a flat standard over the holes and thought "Oh gawd..."
 

Hassles

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It has always been my belief that RTHs were employed to maintain pad life, eg: a broader surface area maintaining pressure between tone hole and pad leather. The Roll on the tone hole will, from a mechanical perspective, strengthen the end of the tube (aka tone hole chimney) like a crease in a sheet of flat metal which will rigidify it.
 
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thomsax

thomsax

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I talked to a guy who was into saxdesign/manufacorring. When we talked about rht vs straight he told med that the were no difference when it came to playablity, tone ... But the love rht because the could take out a higher price. The earned more money.
 
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thomsax

thomsax

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That made me chuckle :) - given how many times I've stripped a rolled tonehole horn, placed a flat standard over the holes and thought "Oh gawd..."
Nearly all tone holes were uneven in the 20's and early 30's?!?!?! That's why Conn had Res-O-Pad, Buescher had "Snap-On " Martin "Neverleaks, Buescher and Conn didn't use shellack. A self leveling system? The pads were more to compensate for uneven toneholes. Another pad system on a Kohlert model 1927 straight soprano. No shellack. A very thick pad with screw and washer.
kohlertwasherscrew.jpg
 

jbtsax

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My experience with original Conn res-o-pads is that the leather was extremely thin---perhaps because it had to be stretched around the metal rim giving the pad a "step". It would make sense that the rolled tonehole would be less aggressive against the more fragile skin than a normal drawn tonehole---especially if the burrs from leveling are not removed.
 

Targa

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Shootin' the breeze, I'd suggest that some sort of 'active' seal would be an improvement. I can't actually think of a way of doing this off the top of my head, but it would imagine some sort of flexible magnetic seal would be an option - though you'd have to go some to balance the springing so that the magnetic field didn't slow the keywork down.
Reading that I thought could the sax be completely redesigned using micro switches under the finger touches connected to electro magnets to close the pads with a spring to open them or as appropriate break the circuit to allow the pad to open with a spring to close it. This would do away with all those messy connecting rods and bits of regulating cork and make the action a lot quicker as there would be minimal finger movement.
Unfortunately:
DE202014006961U1 - Electromechanical Saxophone - Google Patents
 
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