Tech/maintenance Renovation

[djarossens]

Found this Weltklang baritone locally. But why oh why do this to an instrument?
Black and gold paint everywhere.
Any ideas on how to remove it? Paint stripper? Water jet? Buffing (!)? Wire wool?

Second and possibly the major issue is the holes ( see images). At first I was thinking decoration, but I was wondering if maybe it’s from a stand ?
Of course all the pads are gold sprayed, two posts are detached and many keys don’t fit due to the dents. I’m in for quite a ride on this one.

Thanks for all your ideas!

 

[DavidUK]

I guess it cost you nothing?
Giant planter perhaps?

 

[LostCircuits]

Sounds like it may not be worth spending time and effort on it. The paint is easy, aircraft paint remover, that's what they use on planes, will do the trick and it is really easy and fast but the fumes are nasty. If you have a DIY car wash nearby, I'd soak everything in the paint stripper (apply with a brush) and then power-hose it down (those places are outside so you don't have to worry too much about the fumes). I'd use a big plastic tub to transport it or maybe even a heavy duty contractor's garbage bag but those are usually black and it'll be a lot easier if you have something clear.

The holes, beats me why anyone would do something like that but you can patch them.

 

[globoglobito]

Depending on the paint you can use nail polish remover to easily remove it. My wife had a metal bottle that she politely asked me to leave bare metal. After letting it soke for a while, paint started flaking with with help of a brush.

 

[mizmar]

the major issue is the holes

That sax seems to have been "put beyond use".

 

[JayeNM]

First off....your pics caused me PAIN, quite literally. Can you post a warning next time, beforehand ?

So....ugh...OK. Look, ANY DAMAGE CAN BE FIXED, really....short of it having been run over by a car.

So....in the most basic sense....strip the paint, patch the holes, repad it, repair the dents, get it speaking. Doable.

Is it a Low A or Low Bb ?

Doable, but a bear of a project. Paint strip has to be chemical if your intention is to get it back to the (assumed) brass lacquer finish beneath. So a less caustic paint stripper might get off the paint without eating at the lacq.
Then again, a mild chem stripper may NOT get off the paint.

A harsh chem stripper will, but it might take the lacq with it.

So whether you can achieve the return of the original brass lacq finish...is uncertain. If you don't mind the idea of stripping it down to bare, then just go caustic.

The holes, brass sheet metal patches I guess, inside or outside. Neither gonna look good. Best aesthetic result would be doing "insert' patches, literally match the diameter of those drilled holes and patch FLUSH. soft solder them in there, sand away the leftover solder. But that is a bit of an art. Not an easy DIY.

You said it has other dents. Baris always have nore dents than other saxes because their tubes are hard to access unless you detach top or bottom bows. If you aren't gonna do that, then you probabky won't get the dents adequately.

So....myeah....I would question whether this one just gets written off. If it is a Low A, more argument can be made to save it than if Low Bb. Weltklang Low A's were quite alright baritones.

 

[Colin the Bear]

And when you've worked your heart out on it, you'll have a clunky old Weltklang, made of chewing gum, with a lousy action and bits falling off.

I retired mine and replaced it with a brand new bargain basement Chinese instrument which has a much better action and is a pleasure to play.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'd soak everything in the paint stripper (apply with a brush) and then power-hose it down (those places are outside so you don't have to worry too much about the fumes).

Before doing that I’d check where the water runoff goes. You don’t want the toxic chemical paint stripper to go into the environment

 

[Woodpad]

When repaired they are still clunky and have a dark tone. The keys are made of a sturdy alloy, the body of a much softer one. So don't break the keys when bending them back.
If this is the first complete saxophone overhaul, put it aside and learn how to repair an alto. A bari is not recommended for a first try. Alouis Sax did this, but he was already an experienced tech,

The Weltklang tone holes are in most cases rolled which makes it very difficult to get them straight.
When rolled tone holes are wonky, pads start to leak after a few weeks. If you succeed in padding that is leak free for a year you are an experienced tech. It took me 20 years, but that's a different story.

 

[djarossens]

First off....your pics caused me PAIN, quite literally. Can you post a warning next time, beforehand ?

So....ugh...OK. Look, ANY DAMAGE CAN BE FIXED, really....short of it having been run over by a car.

So....in the most basic sense....strip the paint, patch the holes, repad it, repair the dents, get it speaking. Doable.

Is it a Low A or Low Bb ?

Doable, but a bear of a project. Paint strip has to be chemical if your intention is to get it back to the (assumed) brass lacquer finish beneath. So a less caustic paint stripper might get off the paint without eating at the lacq.
Then again, a mild chem stripper may NOT get off the paint.

A harsh chem stripper will, but it might take the lacq with it.

So whether you can achieve the return of the original brass lacq finish...is uncertain. If you don't mind the idea of stripping it down to bare, then just go caustic.

The holes, brass sheet metal patches I guess, inside or outside. Neither gonna look good. Best aesthetic result would be doing "insert' patches, literally match the diameter of those drilled holes and patch FLUSH. soft solder them in there, sand away the leftover solder. But that is a bit of an art. Not an easy DIY.

You said it has other dents. Baris always have nore dents than other saxes because their tubes are hard to access unless you detach top or bottom bows. If you aren't gonna do that, then you probabky won't get the dents adequately.

So....myeah....I would question whether this one just gets written off. If it is a Low A, more argument can be made to save it than if Low Bb. Weltklang Low A's were quite alright baritones.

Thanks for all the great advice and suggestions. Whether it is really "worth" it isnt the question - I am going to repair it for the fun of doing the project and as a learning experience. I will strip the whole thing down and resolder the two posts that are detached as a first step. Chemical stripping seems the say to go as if it is bear brass at the end thats fine with me. I will certainly take either the neck or the bow off so I can access it and take out some of the dents - the bow to body brace is well pushed in causing major issues with the keys so that must be fixed.
Definitely the opportunity to try to flush fit - you suggested soft solder - I was thinking low temp silver solder. Any reason not to go this route - other than the risks of thin tubing?

After that we will see how good it can be, It's a low A so I'm up for it.
Will keep you updated on my progress but don't hold your breath!

 

[djarossens]

When repaired they are still clunky and have a dark tone. The keys are made of a sturdy alloy, the body of a much softer one. So don't break the keys when bending them back.
If this is the first complete saxophone overhaul, put it aside and learn how to repair an alto. A bari is not recommended for a first try. Alouis Sax did this, but he was already an experienced tech,

The Weltklang tone holes are in most cases rolled which makes it very difficult to get them straight.
When rolled tone holes are wonky, pads start to leak after a few weeks. If you succeed in padding that is leak free for a year you are an experienced tech. It took me 20 years, but that's a different story.

Thank you, not my first repair project so happy to get into it on this one. We will see about the padding - whilst I am competent its definitely something I need to improve still so only time will tell.

 

[LostCircuits]

Before doing that I’d check where the water runoff goes. You don’t want the toxic chemical paint stripper to go into the environment

Car wash run-offs are pretty regulated here, because of oil, wax, other chemicals. And it is a relatively small amount of chemicals but I agree, it's worth checking. Still better and safer than flushing it down your bathtub

 

[JayeNM]

Thanks for all the great advice and suggestions. Whether it is really "worth" it isnt the question - I am going to repair it for the fun of doing the project and as a learning experience. I will strip the whole thing down and resolder the two posts that are detached as a first step. Chemical stripping seems the say to go as if it is bear brass at the end thats fine with me. I will certainly take either the neck or the bow off so I can access it and take out some of the dents - the bow to body brace is well pushed in causing major issues with the keys so that must be fixed.
Definitely the opportunity to try to flush fit - you suggested soft solder - I was thinking low temp silver solder. Any reason not to go this route - other than the risks of thin tubing?

After that we will see how good it can be, It's a low A so I'm up for it.
Will keep you updated on my progress but don't hold your breath!

Hi, OK go for it, I always support folks trying to hone repair skills.

In answer to your questions

1) NO REASON TO SILVER SOLDER PATCHES. It takes really high heat to silver solder, so what would happen is you will unwittingly UNSOLDER the bow ferrule if applying silver-solder heat to those areas.

My suggestion...IF you can SOMEHOW cut patches to fit the holes, tap them in there best you can, get them level as you can then soft solder the seams best you can. Then clean up the soft solder drips or runs with sandpaper and steel wool. Even if there are some tiny holes along the seam which did not fill, it's fine, at that bell location they will do nothing negative to getting horn to speak. Or you can fill them with a hardware-store cold-weld product, then wipe off excess.

2) Go with a chem strip, it IS possible it MAY just attack the paint and not the lacquer...see how it goes. If it DOES simultaneously attack the lacq, then as you say, keep going and remove the lacq.

If doing a full lacq removal you are gonna have to do more than the chem stripper, you will need to go in afterward with sandpaper and steel wool to get the nooks and crannies.

3) Bent body tube, I suggest removing the top bow if tehre are also dents there. Then you need a dent rod and balls/barrels inserted into the tube to knock out the impaction. Even if you can get the impaction just 66-75% out, that will do to free up the keywork and it will certainly make the bend less noticeable. To get it ALL out you would likely need to unsolder the bell brace escutcheon from the body tube (leaving the brace connected to the bell of course).

Good luck !!!

 

[turf3]

Unless some kind of two part paint has been used, plain ol' acetone you can buy at any hardware store will strip that baby right down to bare metal. I don't know why people on the internet seem to be so afeared of the stuff. It's way better than most "strippers" with all kinds of caustic stuff in.

I guess if you're stuck in California you'll probably have to drive to AZ or NV. I bet the paint stores in places like Reno, Vegas, Powell, and Yuma do a screaming business in Thompson's Water Seal, acetone, mineral spirits, and Rustoleum.

 

[PigSquealer]

Depending on the paint you can use nail polish remover to easily remove it. My wife had a metal bottle that she politely asked me to leave bare metal. After letting it soke for a while, paint started flaking with with help of a brush.

Nail polish remover is actually acetone that’s scented 😉.

 

[PigSquealer]

Unless some kind of two part paint has been used, plain ol' acetone you can buy at any hardware store will strip that baby right down to bare metal. I don't know why people on the internet seem to be so afeared of the stuff. It's way better than most "strippers" with all kinds of caustic stuff in.

I guess if you're stuck in California you'll probably have to drive to AZ or NV. I bet the paint stores in places like Reno, Vegas, Powell, and Yuma do a screaming business in Thompson's Water Seal, acetone, mineral spirits, and Rustoleum.

Acetone is exactly what I use. It’s available in California. The replacement for everything else is now labeled “painters solvent “
And is largely acetone with ? That stuff evaporates faster than window cleaner. $25 / gallon.

 

[LostCircuits]

Nail polish remover is actually acetone that’s scented 😉.

The nail polish removers I have seen from my various room mates all stated "Acetone-Free"

 

[PigSquealer]

The nail polish removers I have seen from my various room mates all stated "Acetone-Free"

I need to investigate that option. The girls have a tendency of not opening the windows. I’m surprised they haven’t blown the place up.
This is pic I just took.

 

[ghostler]

Found this Weltklang baritone locally. But why oh why do this to an instrument? ... Second and possibly the major issue is the holes ( see images). At first I was thinking decoration, but I was wondering if maybe it’s from a stand ?
Of course all the pads are gold sprayed, two posts are detached and many keys don’t fit due to the dents. I’m in for quite a ride on this one.

IMHO, basically you have a technician's special. I think the holes were drilled to use an automotive style sliding hammer dent puller. This is not the correct way to remove saxophone dents, but seeing the liberty someone did with it and with evidence that some dents around the drilled holes were not removed completely is what comes to my mind.

One inserts an "L" shaped end attachment to the sliding puller into the hole, then carefully slaps the "L" end until the dent is effectively removed. There are much better ways to do this without resorting to this type method, which adds new problems needing repair, like fixing the drilled holes.

I've found that one can even slide the curved edges of a large box end wrench over a dent to burnish it out. Use large mechanic's sockets. I've even used a special slender autobody hand anvil to carefully bump out a dent.

There are multiple ways that I used to fix my 1952(?) Model 37 Beaugnier Vito Low-Bb Bari. It's key racks were all crooked until I bumped them out restoring the sax body's shape plus a bit of coaxing. After straightening plus resetting all pad heights, now plays beautifully in tune.

One wants to be careful not to stretch the metal in removing dents.

In your case, it looks like a complete repad with cork bumpers and felts required, which is quite a bit of work, not to mention also the cleanup required to have a good starting point.

You may do what you want, but my gut level feeling tells me that you'd be better off with another sax candidate than that one. The saving grace with my bari was that the pads on it were decent and it played, but very badly out of tune throughout its voice range. It was a badly abused ex-high school band instrument withdrawn from service, why I got it for $315 US in 2010 shipping included.

Anyway that's my low-down on it for what it is worth.

 

[LostCircuits]

I need to investigate that option. The girls have a tendency of not opening the windows. I’m surprised they haven’t blown the place up.
This is pic I just took.
View attachment 30782

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