Saxophones Pork Tales: Saxophone Repair DIY Adventures.

Life around the barn.

Tales from a pig that likes to stick his nose into everything.

Paint that S. How difficult could it be ?

1) Search the net.
2) Find the color.
3) Order color.
4) Study task on University of YouTube, aka; For destruction by DYI presented by pro tech.

Do the cleaning & prep.

Paint and cleanup / detail the edges with hard cotton swabs. Sounds easy……

Yeah tha guy Matt makes it look easy.
Anyone remember your first experience cooking bacon crispy while still in the frying pan !

 

[thomsax]

I have never seen a Martin Committee or a The Martin with an original brace. I think the last Martin model with neck brace was Martin Handcraft Standard. They also had the Imperial Eb vent. Neck brace and Eb vent was dropped on Martin Handcraft Special.

 

[Tuppertn]

By "flat, flush-style brace" I mean the kind that sits flush with the lesser curve of the neck like on the Comm I instead of spanning the gap like on the Imperial. I still think of that as a neck brace.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Isn't it a move in wrestling too?

 

[mark_addy]

Isn't it a move in wrestling too?

Fun fact - 'Giant Haystacks' was from these parts; he was apparently a friend of my mate's landlord, because he lived temporarily in their spare room for a bit causing some surprise when my mate came home from work.

 

[thomsax]

By "flat, flush-style brace" I mean the kind that sits flush with the lesser curve of the neck like on the Comm I instead of spanning the gap like on the Imperial. I still think of that as a neck brace.

View attachment 37740

This is a not easy.

On the Committee necks there is maybe more a truss (förstärkning/amering, ) to protect the soldered seam?
Brace in Swedish is stöd, sträva, avstyvning, used for heavier constructions?

The brace on a HC Imperial neck is maybe more a to protect the solded seam? Martin HC and The Martin are known for thier strong necks.
The brace/truss on a HC Imperial, HC Standard sax is more to avoid up- or down bending?

I understand the diffence between diffent types of braces on Martin saxophone necks.

Picture from saxorg.

 

[PigSquealer]

Part restoration, part resurrection. Looks like it's Mostly Dead. If you need a chocolate-coated miracle pill...I know guy.

Thanks for the pharmacist recommendation. I avoid any medication that’s chocolate covered. That stuff often has a violent ending🤢

Does the Typewriter neck fit the Imperial receiver?

Dunno yet. Picture of typewriter is old from my archive. It’s located in stack 3 on right. I need to excavate a few feet of barn for retrieval. But yes, I do believe it will fit.

[Tuppertn:]
It looks exactly like most of the Imperial necks I found in my research. If the models were closely consecutive, what are the odds that they used Typewriter necks on the early Imperials? I also found some Imperials that had the flat, flush-style brace like a Comm I.
[Tuppertn:]
Yes they are all very close in appearance. Overall I find Martin necks to be interchangeable. Well at least on altos.

 

[PigSquealer]

I have never seen a Martin Committee or a The Martin with an original brace.

Cross brace no. Support plate like below yes. They all have close to this Comm 1 alto below. Bari I’m not sure about.

I think the last Martin model with neck brace was Martin Handcraft Standard.

I agree on A&T. Not enough information on baritone to be 100% sure.

From the Martin Story site archives it shows the Imperial A&T with a cross brace.

On the “Standard” 1935-1943 and “Standard Special” 1937-1943 it’s a mixed bag. Seems like the cross brace continued on both tenors. Depending on alto year. I’m guessing they made a change over to the ribb flush plate. Not all have the cross brace.

 

[PigSquealer]

The Typewriter crook fits ! Both tenons measure -/+ 27.8mm

There’s some slight differences. 5mm in length just for starters.

Big difference in octave vent location. The Typewriter is an early one from 1930. The Imperial (on left) dates to 1934. The Imperial has a reinforcing ring at end. A quick net search shows this as original. Both the end ID measures .513 / 13.03mm

A slight difference in key arm length. Hinge in same position. Measuring the bore taper also shows a slight difference. Still overall not more than .025 /0,7mm at compared location and measurements taken externally.

SN# 107xxx on left. SN# 100xxx right.

 

[PigSquealer]

Getting caught up on a long overdue lathe upgrade today. A new chuck and matching the backing plate to fit. Been delaying a few years 🤦‍♂️. Upcoming needs are motivating the necessity.
The backing plate is machined to rough dimensions. Basically a universal outside with precision thread starter chunk of iron.
Final fit to the machine and chuck as used is necessary. Material is cast iron. I prefer to machine in cool weather. Ambient shop temperature was 78°/ 23.5° for the duration.

Threaded onto the lathe spindle the back needs to be dressed. I used a large distance spacer between the spindle shoulder and new plate. A bit of fiddling to achieve a good level of true inline.
First cut 12mm off shoulder depth(yellow). This to maximize the amount of threads engaged. OE spec is .130 /3.3mm. Let rest and hour to cool. Temperature matters for precision here.
Next a few very light face cuts (green). Needs to be perfectly flat and zero runout.
Lastly the inside that fits spindle shoulder (blue). The green & blue make you true !

The back done and mounted on the spindle with a net-very light press fit it’s time to machine the face.
(BTW the bolt holes are slightly oversized to allow some float of those for securing. The actual tolerance is final machine fit.)
Tightened on the spindle I checked the runout of outer edge (yellow). Was +/- .003 / 0,06
A few light cuts to true this area.
Next was the face (green). Light cuts until clean & true. Cooling time between cuts. I cut dry. Let cool and check with dial indicators.
Next the shoulder (blue). This makes or breaks the fit. It’s the contact light press fit point between the plate and chuck. 108mm +/- 0,000
Lastly the inside face (red). Height not to exceed 3.9mm.

The above machining fits to inside of this area of chuck.

How tight is a light press fit ?? The shoulder needs a minor chamfer on both sides. Just knock the edge off. The three bolts should draw the parts together with medium-light tool use. By finger is too loose, you’re out of spec.
How tight did the two makers expect the tolerances to be….
See this threaded hole above the cap bolt in picture below ?

There’s two. One on each side. This is to remove the three securing cap bolts. Then use two in those threaded holes to press the plate off the chuck. Yep, that’s a light press fit ! Aka done by experience feel and judgement call.

 

[PigSquealer]

FWIW the backing plate I acquired from a local industrial machine shop supply company at $58 delivered incl taxes. It’s USA made locally. These precision made of high grade materials can cost $300. Think cast iron to really high carbon steel. Time & materials. You get what you pay for.
Understand/ study what you’re buying.

The chuck I purchased in 2022 off Amazombie. Directly from maker. An offshore vendor and $58 delivered.
That’s beyond dirt cheap. Accuracies are not always the best. At the same time learning mistakes happen. Crashing a soft cheap tool often doesn’t damage the main machine.
These precision made of high quality materials can cost $650.
Study and understand the difference to your needs.
The chuck runout spec is 0,05 or .002.
That’s a ton on small tight tolerance work. Add the 78 years old lathe spec was +/- .002 at new.
The backing plate specifications are unlisted. Deem that as general use/ medium duty. Not day to day heavy bashing or abuse.
If you’re concerned. Call or email the manufacturer and ask.
Still with some patience and understanding, the backing plate is very usable.

The K-11-125mm (5”) chuck is no longer available. Other sizes larger or smaller are still available.
The chuck was supplied with all three jaws installed. Below shows the securing cap bolts, chuck wrench and extra chuck jaws as delivered.

Here’s the technical measurements information. Underlined in red is K11-125. Discontinued.
I had to use another size selection to access the specification chart. The note in upper left is incorrect to 125 unit.

Any questions about vendors or sources ? Please ask in a DM.

 

[mark_addy]

That looks like a nice job. I thought these (oversize chuck on a small machine, with my fabricated franken-backplate) might make you laugh (and the squalor! I can hear my Mum saying 'would you not have put a brush around before making a show of us with the photos' from beyond the grave). For the sort of general-purpose stuff I do, this works well. I do have a couple of smaller ones but I doubt they're much more accurate. I have an order in for some small collets to complete my set in 32nds to 1/2", in an attempt to achieve some degree of accuracy on small stuff - I persuaded myself to go for it when I saw I could also complete the set for the smaller machine at our museum, which is the same UK copy / development of a SouthBend 9A. These are coming from the USA via ebay, and work out at about £7 per collet including delivery. I wouldn't want to make them for sale at that price - we'll see what they're like when they get here.

 

[mark_addy]

...Ambient shop temperature was 78°/ 23.5° for the duration...

That's showing off. We won't see that until next July, outside of an incident with that cheapo oxy-propane gear I bought 🙂

 

[thomsax]

Cross brace no. Support plate like below yes. They all have close to this Comm 1 alto below. Bari I’m not sure about.
View attachment 37760

I agree on A&T. Not enough information on baritone to be 100% sure.

From the Martin Story site archives it shows the Imperial A&T with a cross brace.
View attachment 37758

On the “Standard” 1935-1943 and “Standard Special” 1937-1943 it’s a mixed bag. Seems like the cross brace continued on both tenors. Depending on alto year. I’m guessing they made a change over to the ribb flush plate. Not all have the cross brace.

Yes, all Committee (I include "The Martin" as well) have a "plate brace" on the necks. I have no HC Committee bari but from what I have seen it's a "plate brace" on them as well. Here is a picture of five "Committee necks. All original with matching serial # stamped on the necks. They are pretty much the same but the late necks were longer. Martin Committee necks are good. One of the best when we talk about "vintage saxes. Thick walls and the stayed round. Many other saxes become oval over the years.

I have no "strut-braced" Martin that is "trussing" up the neck.

1. "The Martin Magna Tenor" -59
2. "The Martin Baritone" -62
3. "The Martin Alto" -57
4. "HC (Committee) tenor -38
5. "HC Comm II alto -40

 

[PigSquealer]

That's showing off. We won't see that until next July, outside of an incident with that cheapo oxy-propane gear I bought 🙂

Well just over a week ago it was toasty hot here. I’m enjoying the cold weather.

 

[PigSquealer]

Yes, all Committee (I include "The Martin" as well) have a "plate brace" on the necks. I have no HC Committee bari but from what I have seen it's a "plate brace" on them as well. Here is a picture of five "Committee necks. All original with matching serial # stamped on the necks. They are pretty much the same but the late necks were longer. Martin Committee necks are good. One of the best when we talk about "vintage saxes. Thick walls and the stayed round. Many other saxes become oval over the years.

I have no "strut-braced" Martin that is "trussing" up the neck.

1. "The Martin Magna Tenor" -59
2. "The Martin Baritone" -62
3. "The Martin Alto" -57
4. "HC (Committee) tenor -38
5. "HC Comm II alto -40
View attachment 37792

Nice post documenting the year and model. Great information to have on hand. Thanks for taking the time to share.

 

[PigSquealer]

The true chuck test.
Machine 3” on one end.

Check runout. It was zero as it should be.

Remove stock turn around and lockup on new machined area. Make a pass 3” long to “true”.

Turn around again and check runout. There should be hopefully zero. The cheap chuck specification is 0,02 / .0005.
That exactly my end results. One half thousandth at 3” away from chuck.

@Stephen Howard @mark_addy , I’m shopping for MT3 5C set today 😉
The ER collets are too limited. I like room to grow and not buy twice.

 

[mark_addy]

That's very very good. I don't work on machines that can do that here, at our museum, or at work! 🙂

 

[PigSquealer]

That's very very good. I don't work on machines that can do that here, at our museum, or at work! 🙂

Thanks 😊
I checked the work in progress constantly. The brass 10mm diameter was good & sturdy.