Saxophones Pork Tales: Saxophone Repair DIY Adventures.

Life around the barn.

Tales from a pig that likes to stick his nose into everything.

Paint that S. How difficult could it be ?

1) Search the net.
2) Find the color.
3) Order color.
4) Study task on University of YouTube, aka; For destruction by DYI presented by pro tech.

Do the cleaning & prep.

Paint and cleanup / detail the edges with hard cotton swabs. Sounds easy……

Yeah tha guy Matt makes it look easy.
Anyone remember your first experience cooking bacon crispy while still in the frying pan !

 

[PigSquealer]

The individual low B and Bb guards will look hipper, more like an original Selmer BA. Where did the new low B and Bb guards come from?

The new guards were customer furnished. I’ll ask for the source.
First I reviewed the potential of successful fit & mounting. Big mess to get sorted. The reason to remove everything and start fresh.

This is what I was given to work from.

I’ll most likely make all new mounts. Either fabricated from sheet stock or machined. I’m still waiting for the neck & bumpers to arrive.

Mounts like a Couesnon could be made without the diamond base.

Mounts like an JK ST can also be made.

 

[PigSquealer]

He made his decision! "I'm gonna stay THERE!"

I think it was the espresso machine that he really wanted to stay for.

 

[thomsax]

The guards & mounts the unit arrived here with I don’t know what the origin is.
View attachment 37235
View attachment 37236
View attachment 37237
View attachment 37238

The receiver is new from JK (Buffet Crampon) and from the SX90 R model. The ID and overall length is almost identical.
View attachment 37240
There’s an .043 difference in height where the top pillar rests. Adjustment needs will be addressed upon installation.
View attachment 37241

The receiver change is to accommodate the use of different necks.

The low Bb and B keyguards are something in the style as "The New King" (Keilwerth). My "The New King" (# 60XXX, c1967) is a Keilwerth with wide bow.

 

[ghostler]

Looks like you have your work cut out for you but the usual non-routine challenges for someone of your calibre, @PigSquealer . Looking forward to your finished results.

 

[turf3]

OK PS, I've got a question for you. You seem to be able to work out tricks for difficult situations. THAT OTHER forum didn't turn up anything.

I've got a needle spring, in the lower stack, that is too weak. I remember that when I put this horn back together, I thought "wow, I sure am having to put a lot of curve on this thing". Comparing it to the other springs on the stack, it's a far smaller diameter spring. Now the question is, how can I enlarge the hole in the post?

Obviously I can unsolder the post, drill the hole larger, and reinstall the post. But I'd rather not do that if I don't have to. The post in question has posts to the left and right. The space between the posts is just about enough to be able to get the springs in - so let's say 1~1.25". No way I could fish, say, a teeny twist drill in a pin vise, in there and line it up. I saw those Ferree's "broaches" for spring holes, but again, way too long.

The best I could come up with so far would be either: 1) break off a teeny twist drill in the fluted part, so I could get it in between the posts, and grab it with some needle nose pliers and work it back and forth to crudely drill out the hole, or 2) take a short piece of sacrificial spring and grind a flat on it so it can act as a reamer, and grab IT with some needle nose pliers and ream out the hole to size.

Someone did kindly point out that the hole might actually be bigger than the current spring and I might be able to just go up a size or two in spring diameter and it'd fit through the hole as is - which of course would be first prize, but I'm not going to count on it.

I haven't torn into this thing in detail yet, but I was hoping that someone could say "oh yeah, what I do when I'm faced with needing to make a spring hole bigger and there are posts on either side, is THIS" and it would be something I haven't already thought of. (I mean other than of course "Well, bucky, you're screwed, gotta unsolder the post and get it up on the bench where you can work on it standing on your hind legs".

This is the RH middle finger key, which operates the fork Eb on the back, so I also thought "well, just spring that little devil closed and glue the finger touch to the pad cup and it won't matter" but closing the fork Eb makes the F natural just HORRIBLY flat and stuffy. So that's not an option.

 

[PigSquealer]

OK PS, I've got a question for you. You seem to be able to work out tricks for difficult situations. THAT OTHER forum didn't turn up anything.

I've got a needle spring, in the lower stack, that is too weak. I remember that when I put this horn back together, I thought "wow, I sure am having to put a lot of curve on this thing". Comparing it to the other springs on the stack, it's a far smaller diameter spring. Now the question is, how can I enlarge the hole in the post?

Obviously I can unsolder the post, drill the hole larger, and reinstall the post. But I'd rather not do that if I don't have to. The post in question has posts to the left and right. The space between the posts is just about enough to be able to get the springs in - so let's say 1~1.25". No way I could fish, say, a teeny twist drill in a pin vise, in there and line it up. I saw those Ferree's "broaches" for spring holes, but again, way too long.

The best I could come up with so far would be either: 1) break off a teeny twist drill in the fluted part, so I could get it in between the posts, and grab it with some needle nose pliers and work it back and forth to crudely drill out the hole, or 2) take a short piece of sacrificial spring and grind a flat on it so it can act as a reamer, and grab IT with some needle nose pliers and ream out the hole to size.

Someone did kindly point out that the hole might actually be bigger than the current spring and I might be able to just go up a size or two in spring diameter and it'd fit through the hole as is - which of course would be first prize, but I'm not going to count on it.

I haven't torn into this thing in detail yet, but I was hoping that someone could say "oh yeah, what I do when I'm faced with needing to make a spring hole bigger and there are posts on either side, is THIS" and it would be something I haven't already thought of. (I mean other than of course "Well, bucky, you're screwed, gotta unsolder the post and get it up on the bench where you can work on it standing on your hind legs".

This is the RH middle finger key, which operates the fork Eb on the back, so I also thought "well, just spring that little devil closed and glue the finger touch to the pad cup and it won't matter" but closing the fork Eb makes the F natural just HORRIBLY flat and stuffy. So that's not an option.

I would first review if the spring holes are straight inline. Often they are not.

What’s the increase difference ? That spring should be around .040-.043.
Honestly I haven’t encountered this situation before. If I were to attempt this I would go the DIY reamer route made from a long spring. Three flats. Spin the thing with a bow. Press on end with a thimble on fingertip.

 

[PigSquealer]

Anyone know what this glue is ?
It melts about the same temperature as shellac. Has about zero working time. Short to no strings and when in a warm cup will dissolve in isopropyl alcohol. First time seeing foil tape as regulation material.

At least cleaning out the cups wasn’t a pain. Warm cup, fill with isopropyl alcohol, agitate with Q-tip and wipe clear.

Don’t overdo the heat ! Add the alcohol holding the parts away from your body. Have fire safety measures in place.
Don’t attempt to heat a cup full of alcohol, or expect a fire. ⬇️

 

[mark_addy]

Anyone know what this glue is ?
It melts about the same temperature as shellac. Has about zero working time. Short to no strings and when in a warm cup will dissolve in isopropyl alcohol. First time seeing foil tape as regulation material.
View attachment 37344

At least cleaning out the cups wasn’t a pain. Warm cup, fill with isopropyl alcohol, agitate with Q-tip and wipe clear.
View attachment 37345

Don’t overdo the heat ! Add the alcohol holding the parts away from your body. Have fire safety measures in place.
Don’t attempt to heat a cup full of alcohol, or expect a fire. ⬇️
View attachment 37346

Looks a bit like Copydex. Doesn't smell of fish, does it?

Copydex - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[turf3]

I seem to remember a yellow goop my stepfather tried to use to seal the rear window of his El Camino (a known leak point). Could it be "Duco" cement?

 

[skeller047]

I think it’s “French cement”. I am dealing with this now on a Beaugnier-made Vito model 37 alto I am repadding for a friend. Complete PITA, because when cold you cannot get it out of the cup, it does not chip like shellac.

I heat the cement directly for about 5 seconds with a torch, then fill the cup with alcohol and scrape it up with a piece of dead reed, then wipe with cloth. Takes 2-3 times to get the cup clean…

Note to other DIY enthusiasts. Do not throw away your old dead reeds. They are wonderful material for makeshift tools that will not scratch lacquer.

This one took 4 repetitions to get clean…

 

[mark_addy]

Now I fancy cheese-and-Worcester-sauce on toast.

 

[LostCircuits]

I think it’s “French cement”. I am dealing with this now on a Beaugnier-made Vito model 37 alto I am repadding for a friend. Complete PITA, because when cold you cannot get it out of the cup, it does not chip like shellac.

I heat the cement directly for about 5 seconds with a torch, then fill the cup with alcohol and scrape it up with a piece of dead reed, then wipe with cloth. Takes 2-3 times to get the cup clean…

Note to other DIY enthusiasts. Do not throw away your old dead reeds. They are wonderful material for makeshift tools that will not scratch lacquer.

This one took 4 repetitions to get clean…
View attachment 37354

Looks more like swiss raclette cheese... and if you lose your piece of bread ...

 

[Stephen Howard]

I think it’s “French cement”. I am dealing with this now on a Beaugnier-made Vito model 37 alto I am repadding for a friend. Complete PITA, because when cold you cannot get it out of the cup, it does not chip like shellac.

I heat the cement directly for about 5 seconds with a torch, then fill the cup with alcohol and scrape it up with a piece of dead reed, then wipe with cloth. Takes 2-3 times to get the cup clean…

Note to other DIY enthusiasts. Do not throw away your old dead reeds. They are wonderful material for makeshift tools that will not scratch lacquer.

This one took 4 repetitions to get clean…

Looks like what we over here call white wax or white shellac. Traditionally used on skin clarinets pads or white kid pads.
It's not great stuff - tends to be rather messy and has been largely supplanted by hot melt glues.
Comes in stick or granule form.
Its holding power over time is not great.

Old reeds are must for horn work. Placed between a height adjustment cork and the body they make for superb cutting blocks,
Little handy hint...if you're using plain cane reeds, run a black sharpie over them. Makes it easier to see where to cut the cork/felt. Or use old Plasticovers.

 

[PigSquealer]

Doesn't smell of fish, does it?

No odor at all.

I seem to remember a yellow goop my stepfather tried to use to seal the rear window of his El Camino (a known leak point). Could it be "Duco" cement?

What I can find on “Duco cement” appears to be of cold bond nature. This stuff melts like shellac. Cools rock hard.

I think it’s “French cement”.

Found the product on Ferees tools. No description of product use, just a picture of stick.

Complete PITA, because when cold you cannot get it out of the cup, it does not chip like shellac.

Exactly the same here.

I heat the cement directly for about 5 seconds with a torch, then fill the cup with alcohol and scrape it up with a piece of dead reed, then wipe with cloth. Takes 2-3 times to get the cup clean…

I too have consistent success with a warm cup filled with isopropyl. Soak / stir with Q-tip. I didn’t try to scrape with old reed, but I did try a chisel tip cut into a square chopstick. Took too long.

Note to other DIY enthusiasts. Do not throw away your old dead reeds. They are wonderful material for makeshift tools that will not scratch lacquer.

Great suggestion ! I use them often for different needs.

This one took 4 repetitions to get clean…

That cup had two different types of shellac on it. The previous tech was lazy and didn’t clean the cups well. Ugg !
I got lucky.

 

[PigSquealer]

Looks like what we over here call white wax or white shellac. Traditionally used on skin clarinets pads or white kid pads.
It's not great stuff - tends to be rather messy and has been largely supplanted by hot melt glues.

The repad is less than 3 years old. I assume a currently available adhesive ?
The goo has an odd character. Removing pad from a 25-40mm cup takes about same heat as natural shellac. Direct heat from low setting on open flame 2-3” away. It goes into a liquid state almost instantly. Doesn’t flow but bubbles like crazy. Hot air torch @200°f 1” away this goes liquid in 10-15 count.
Liquid state back to solid is maybe 8 seconds. Cures rock hard.

Its holding power over time is not great.

Probably fails from brittle fracturing.

Little handy hint...if you're using plain cane reeds, run a black sharpie over them. Makes it easier to see where to cut the cork/felt.

Just ordered box of new sharpie's😉

 

[PigSquealer]

These flexible goo sticks came from Amazombie years ago. HMG & open flame 🚫

 

[PigSquealer]

The current goo being reviewed is hard & brittle. A full no go on scraping out of cups.

A variation of @skeller047 work above. (BTW Steve thanks for sharing your experience ! Each is unique and useful to learn from).
For me what worked best, low / no mess, quick to a well clean cup.
Heat cup, remove pad. Quick stab of heat and quickly wipe out bulk. Stab of heat & fill with isopropyl. Stirr with Q-tip until everything was loose. Clear cup out with tissue.

22 cups done in just over an hour. That’s like 3 minutes each.

Notice the scratches or hash pattern inside all the cups ? That’s from the last tech cleaning and scuffing the surface. Adding a bit of tooth to the smooth surface to make the shellac bond better is the idea. I don’t practice this technique. Why ? The factories didn’t. Pads have stayed in for decades. Those that fall out have two characteristics.
They lack adequate adhesive, or were installed with liquified shellac.

 

[Stephen Howard]

The repad is less than 3 years old. I assume a currently available adhesive ?
The goo has an odd character. Removing pad from a 25-40mm cup takes about same heat as natural shellac. Direct heat from low setting on open flame 2-3” away. It goes into a liquid state almost instantly. Doesn’t flow but bubbles like crazy. Hot air torch @200°f 1” away this goes liquid in 10-15 count.
Liquid state back to solid is maybe 8 seconds. Cures rock hard.

Probably fails from brittle fracturing.

What tends to happen is that the pad drops out of the cup, shellac and all, leaving the cup completely clean.
To be sure, that happens with shellac sometimes - but it seems to be more prevalent with the white stuff.
I have a sneaking suspicion that some of it might down to nickel plating on the interior of the key cups.
That's why I switched to HMG for clarinet pads - and certain pads on saxes where moisture is more of an issue.