Tech/maintenance Musicmedic Neo Pads

[DavidUK]

I'd say forget it. The Neo pad style ball and socket idea can never work due to the two double action issues caused by the unavoidable looseness of the ball in the socket:
1/ pad flops around, having to find the tone hole level each time it closes.
2/ pad hits the tone hole and then the ball hits the back of the socket giving a "double hit" feeling under the fingers.

If you can find a way of tightening the ball in the socket you also need to avoid leather pad rotation as with the Neo's small ball side spigot which fits into a slot in the socket.

 

[Marb_germ]

I'd say forget it. The Neo pad style ball and socket idea can never work due to the two double action issues caused by the unavoidable looseness of the ball in the socket:
1/ pad flops around, having to find the tone hole level each time it closes.
2/ pad hits the tone hole and then the ball hits the back of the socket giving a "double hit" feeling under the fingers.

If you can find a way of tightening the ball in the socket you also need to avoid leather pad rotation as with the Neo's small ball side spigot which fits into a slot in the socket.

Assuming my FDM printer has a tolerance of ±0.1 mm, it should work. Plus, you can reprint the spud whenever you need it, or simply replace it every three months during your COA. Resin printers have a tolerance of ±0.05 mm, and of course, you can print your ball slightly bigger for a tighter fit. You can also choose from various plastic materials—from PLA to Nylon and even Delrin (though Delrin is a nightmare to print).

 

[DavidUK]

The issue with the ball and socket is that the ball diameter needs to be small enough to squeeze through the narrow entrance to the socket into it's larger chamber behind. Thus the ball diameter can only be very slightly larger than the diameter of this entrance. But the spherical chamber behind needs to be tight to the ball to stop the pad flopping around in mid travel. If you think about it for long enough it's impossible without some mechanism or material which allows both ingress into the chamber and tight fitting when in there.
Experiment if you like but Jim Schmidt and MM (with Jim's collaboration) have and neither have avoided the double action issue/s.
You also need to think about pad thickness, around 4-4.5mm and build your idea into an already built pad. Tricky.
My pads are 3.7mm thick at their lowest setting but mechanically adjustable out to, well, any thickness really. Let's say 6mm to stay within the realms of normality.
I quickly moved away from ball and socket design due to the above failings and gained easy height adjustment rather than having to glue and unglue shims behind the cup spud to achieve this.
Imagine having to dismantle you stacks every time you want to adjust one pad?
It makes shellac or hot glue look like a better option again!

 

[Marb_germ]

The issue with the ball and socket is that the ball diameter needs to be small enough to squeeze through the narrow entrance to the socket into it's larger chamber behind. Thus the ball diameter can only be very slightly larger than the diameter of this entrance. But the spherical chamber behind needs to be tight to the ball to stop the pad flopping around in mid travel. If you think about it for long enough it's impossible without some mechanism or material which allows both ingress into the chamber and tight fitting when in there.
Experiment if you like but Jim Schmidt and MM (with Jim's collaboration) have and neither have avoided the double action issue/s.
You also need to think about pad thickness, around 4-4.5mm and build your idea into an already built pad. Tricky.
My pads are 3.7mm thick at their lowest setting but mechanically adjustable out to, well, any thickness really. Let's say 6mm to stay within the realms of normality.
I quickly moved away from ball and socket design due to the above failings and gained easy height adjustment rather than having to glue and unglue shims behind the cup spud to achieve this.
Imagine having to dismantle you stacks every time you want to adjust one pad?
It makes shellac or hot glue look like a better option again!

MM designed a socket with a slit that temporarily expands to allow a larger diameter ball to pass through the entrance. This approach combines a compact design with the required tight fit of the ball in the chamber behind the socket.

 

[LostCircuits]

IMO pad rotation would be an issue, especially if the pad isn't completely centred over the tonehole.

No, not an issue, at least not with the original Buescher snap glueless mount and the Neo pads are modeled after those.

 

[LostCircuits]

Height correction and centering can be quite difficult. After that wear on the plastic spud can affect the regulation of the main stack.

I don't see wear happening, once the pads have found their position, they are static

 

[ghostler]

Looks like these type pads might be well suited for the self do-er. Then, one isn't having issues to put enough say, hot melt glue pellets and sufficient heat on the pad cup to ensure the pad is temporarily floated enough to seat level to the hole edges.

 

[PigSquealer]

MM designed a socket with a slit that temporarily expands to allow a larger diameter ball to pass through the entrance. This approach combines a compact design with the required tight fit of the ball in the chamber behind the socket.

That is not a slit to accommodate the ball installation entirely. The gap (slit) is there to align with a pin cast / molded into the ball. This intern keeps the pad from rotating.
The pad itself has engineered flex / give for an less than perfect level tone hole. There is also some engineered friction fit of the socket to ball. They don’t flop around freely each time the key is pressed closed and then opened.

 

[Urgoyle]

They sound perfect for the bottom end keys on my crappy old mexicon which will be called a classic in 50 years when everyones dumped them. Same as old yamahas are now called vintage, when they were no good when they came out way back 😁 I bought one.
Functional yes but with no character in the sound whatsoever. I find it hilarious how folk dont like change. Same with better sax horns, theres nowt wrong with them. "But there chinese" I hear folk cry, Who cares, I heard the same noise created when tawain started making horns who now supply the stencils.
Better sax have nearly got the selmer mk6 tone these days. Which Will kick selmer in the bank account. About time an all, their horns are overated and went bland after the super 80 mk 1. Why cant selmer make a .mk6 copy? Theve been trying to replace it for 60 0dd years and not got very far. Maybe the chinese will force their hand. Neo pads, yeh there a repairers nightmare I should imagine who often rely on schools for revenue or did until diy neo pads reared there money saving heads.

 

[Woodpad]

I don't see wear happening, once the pads have found their position, they are static

We don't know much on the wear characteristics. PLastics can wear.

 

[Marb_germ]

No, not an issue, at least not with the original Buescher snap glueless mount and the Neo pads are modeled after those.

We don't know much on the wear characteristics. PLastics can wear.

Nylon & Delrin: Hold my beer 😂

 

[Woodpad]

Same as old yamahas are now called vintage, when they were no good when they came out way back 😁 I bought one.
Functional yes but with no character in the sound whatsoever. I find it hilarious how folk dont like change.

Mankind has a habbit of meaking stupid mistakes for dubious reasons, It is al described by Erasmus in Praise of folly. Not a very new book but the message will not stick as mankind has a habbit of making stupid mistakes for dubious reasons.

 

[Woodpad]

Nylon & Delrin: Hold my beer 😂

Delrin acetal copolymer or delrin acetal homopolymer?
Also what kind of beer?

 

[Marb_germ]

Is there anyone, including David, who can send me the exact dimensions of the Neo pad mechanism, rather than just an opinion on whether they are good or not?

Thanks! 🙂

 

[DavidUK]

That is not a slit to accommodate the ball installation entirely. The gap (slit) is there to align with a pin cast / molded into the ball. This intern keeps the pad from rotating.
The pad itself has engineered flex / give for an less than perfect level tone hole. There is also some engineered friction fit of the socket to ball. They don’t flop around freely each time the key is pressed closed and then opened.

Yes, the socket slit (slot) is for the side pin off the ball to locate and prevent rotation.

But there isn't a friction fit in the socket and so the pad does flop around freely whenever it's not in contact with the tone hole. I'll add a video of this later...

 

[DavidUK]

I don't see wear happening, once the pads have found their position, they are static

Jim Schmidt explained to me that the constant rotation of his metallic pads spreads wear over the pad surface due to the non-concentricity of cup centre to tone hole.
As the pad rotates it follows the spud and socket must wear. As they wear, further sloppiness must occur.

Jim said:

"The pad can rotate in the cup and that is a good thing. If the tonehole is off center to the pad then the rotating pad just has a wider area that the tonehole wears against. Over time this wider area averages and evens out and the pad actually lasts longer because the wear is spread over a wider surface. The pad seals the same no matter if it rotates or not. See the enclosed photo (under) showing a couple of my sax pads (NB. Jim's original pads, not Neo pads) located on off center toneholes. After about 5 years of heavy playing you can see the wider area of tonehole contact. They still seal as well as any other pad on the horn."

And here's one of Jim's same pads (not Neo) installed and clearly demonstrating the other double action caused by the loose fitting ball and socket arrangement. Noisy too...

View: https://youtu.be/Dubz1VN6UxU

 

[Urgoyle]

Ive watched the vids dimensions are stated on it from memory the sticking surface is 8mm, cant remember the rest, you gotta size downsize on pads to enable the swivel. Ill buy some give um a go. Unless I change my mind which does happen. Ive watched plenty of shellac pad fitting vids as well which doesnt seem that much of a bother, just more time.https://youtu.be/smPSxJH4obE?si=nEAoIsSRAQjWD1FQ

 

[Urgoyle]

If your on the road and need a quick fix they are ideal. The days of dropping yer sax off to a music shop and it being fixed by an unknown source only to br presented with a massive bill are gone. Hurrah!

 

[Woodpad]

If your on the road and need a quick fix they are ideal. The days of dropping yer sax off to a music shop and it being fixed by an unknown source only to br presented with a massive bill are gone. Hurrah!

You still need to have the right sizes with you and adjusting the height requires some prexcision, which is omitted in the video. I think I spend 20 euro on techs in the last ten years due to my diy pads.

 

[Urgoyle]

Right on..., Ive never bothered to fix them myself until now. Surprised how easy conns are to work on. I've no grub screws for regulating and nothings seized up.
I think Ive been lucky with this buy, shes blowing already, it seals up on the bottom stack now after some key leveling, all notes availible, top ends nice and free blowing and managed to crank out a couple of altissimos even with the no name plastic mouthpiece.
Im intrigued with the neo pads, you dont know until you try, like most things and there easy enuff to replace if there is any delay in pad sealing to sounding the note. Spits helping here to seal her after about 10 mins. Who knows I may go the whole hog and do a full repad cos Im loving the tone. Dont buy a mexicon there crap..yeh ok..😉