Theory & Impro Modes - do you think about them derived from a base scale

[Pete Thomas]

Or D minor

I see a connection to D minor:

Greensleeves can be wholly Dorian with B and C natural every time, or it can be played with Bb’s, and also C#’s.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I see a connection to D minor:

Sure a connection, but I thought we were getting all puritan about a mode is a mode

 

[Pete Thomas]

Sure a connection, but I thought we were getting all puritan about a mode is a mode

I think it’s fine for us all to have differing opinions but a mode will always be a mode 🙂

 

[Pete Effamy]

In this case then:

Pete Effamy said:
Greensleeves can be wholly Dorian with B and C natural every time, or it can be played with Bb’s, and also C#’s.

Is the latter still a Dorian quirk or just Chinese whispers?

 

[cappers]

@admin This is the latest thread about modes so asking here. Feel free to move if not appropriate.

Newbie question about mode terminology.

If I have it right, using Cmajor as an example, the 5th mode or mixolydian is G A B C D E F
Is this 5th mode named C mixolydian after the parent scale or G mixolydian as the first degree?

I notice that if I take Gmaj the 5th mode is D E F# G A B C, so again G mix or D mixo?

On topic, it occurred to me that when I see G7 I think that's Gmaj7 with a b7 = mixolydian!
Ditto D7 is a mixo, Gmaj7 with b7. Very basic I'm sure but a light-bulb moment for me!

 

[Pete Thomas]

Is this 5th mode named C mixolydian after the parent scale or G mixolydian as the first degree?

No it is G mixolydian, and as a mode in its own right in my opinion has no connection whatsoever with C major. Although they share the same notes, the crucial thing is the key center. I find it far more useful and a more musical concept to think of modes in their own right, not relative to any other mode or scale with the same notes.

So instead of thinking G mixolydian based on the 5th note of C major scale, think of it as G major with a flattened 7th.

See here:

Theory & Impro - Modes - do you think about them derived from a base scale

Modes are often described as a ‘type of musical scale coupled with a set of characteristic melodic and harmonic behaviors’ (source: wikipedia). They’re also often introduced using a major scale as a base: I = Ionian, II = Dorian, III = Phrygian, IV = Lydian, V = Myxolydian, VI = Aeolian, VII =...

cafesaxophone.com

scaleOn topic, it occurred to me that when I see G7 I think that's Gmaj7 with a b7 = mixolydian!

It is a chord not a scale or mode. In other words a mode or scale is not a chord.

 

[Zasterz]

It is a chord not a scale or mode. In other words a mode or scale is not a chord.

A G13 chord is every single note of G Mixolydian. I understand being annoyed at the overuse of chord/mode pedagogy but those two things are the same collection of pitches.

 

[cappers]

No it is G mixolydian, and as a mode in its own right in my opinion has no connection whatsoever with C major. Although they share the same notes, the crucial thing is the key center. I find it far more useful and a more musical concept to think of modes in their own right, not relative to any other mode or scale with the same notes.

Thanks @Pete Thomas
I have read both the thread and your TTS pages. Just confused about naming, now clear and makes sense.

So instead of thinking G mixolydian based on the 5th note of C major scale, think of it as G major with a flattened 7th.

That's what I was alluding to when I wrote about the G7 chord being Gmaj7 with a b7 rather than the 5th mode of Cmajor.

 

[cappers]

Being a newbie and keen to progress with the time and ability to study, I know I might be exploring areas above my level but I need and want to know what I'm doing.

I've read about Abersold's chord/scale/mode approach and seen YouTube items about it but personally I find it a bit complex. See a maj7 and play from a major scale, min7 = Dorian, dom7 = Mixolydian etc. OK for a two or three chord song but after that too much mental processing for me! Chords are a lot easier and I'm happy that I can now remember several of them without thinking '1 is D so 3 is...' or 'a 9th is DF#AC# oh yes E'

My tutor and MD both encourage me to play with the chord tones and when comfortable add other notes. Lead notes/voice leading (I think that's the term) has been discussed. Aiming to keep it simple and melodic, with space, repetition and rhythm. I've noticed that using too many notes I start noodling and not going anywhere.

Again, thanks for advice etc.

 

[lydian]

I'm like you @cappers, modes are pretty much useless to me on the bandstand, too much mental gymnastics. Much easier for me to think in terms of alterations to the major scale in the heat of the moment. For me, modes help with analysis and composition but not improv. There's no way I'm going to look at a Ab7b9b13#11 and think, oh, that's the tritone sub of the 5th mode of G in an instant. The whole chorus is over by the time I figure that out. I only have time to think 'altered dominant'. If I were a guitar player, thinking in terms of shapes, it might be a different story. But I can't think shapes on sax. It's much more abstract than that.

 

[Zasterz]

My tutor and MD both encourage me to play with the chord tones and when comfortable add other notes.

Just remember- after your 4 chord tones in a 7th chord, there are only THREE remaining notes that would make a mode or other 7-note scale. 9 11 13 (also known as 2 4 6.) It’s absolutely fine to mess around and see which kind of each of those 3 notes you prefer in a given context. (Major or minor 9? Natural or sharp 11? Minor or major 13?) You could start by just trying to add 9s for a while, for example. Let your ear and your personal taste guide you. As @skeller047 mentioned, if it sounds good, it is good.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I have moved the new discussion about 13ths, 11ths and 4ths as avoid notes to its own topic as its very different to the the topic of this thread and has developed into a significant new discussion: see here:

Theory & Impro - Does a 13th chord include an 11th? 4ths as avoid notes.

EDIT: I have moved this discussion from the modes thread as it is completely new and significant topic in its own right which has developed into an interesting. A G13 chord is every single note of G Mixolydian. Correct (although it isn't necessary to voice all the notes). But it is still a...

cafesaxophone.com

This will help with search engines and discovery of the topic.

 

[mrblackbat]

🙁

 

[mrblackbat]

Just remember- after your 4 chord tones in a 7th chord, there are only THREE remaining notes that would make a mode or other 7-note scale. 9 11 13 (also known as 2 4 6.) It’s absolutely fine to mess around and see which kind of each of those 3 notes you prefer in a given context. (Major or minor 9? Natural or sharp 11? Minor or major 13?) You could start by just trying to add 9s for a while, for example. Let your ear and your personal taste guide you. As @skeller047 mentioned, if it sounds good, it is good.

But you don't need to just stick to 7 note modes either. You can happily add the b9 AND the #9, you can happily add the b13 AND natural 13, and depending on the context the b7 and major 7; bebop scales are great, right. Or play diminished scales, for example.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Oops , a couple of posts got moved that were better off staying so I've moved them back here. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Pete Thomas]

My tutor and MD both encourage me to play with the chord tones and when comfortable add other notes.

I agree 100% with this approach. Knowing the chord tones is a crucial key to learning melodic impro.

Just remember- after your 4 chord tones in a 7th chord, there are only THREE remaining notes that would make a mode or other 7-note scale. 9 11 13 (also known as 2 4 6.) It’s absolutely fine to mess around and see which kind of each of those 3 notes you prefer in a given context. (often these will be passing notes)

Exactly. So once you know the 4 notes of your G7, you'll find that you can connect them using the notes in between (often these will be passing notes) so you are already thinking much more melodically than if you were thinking "what scale goes with a G7?"

I find that to start off it's good to use the chord tones on the beat and the other notes off (ie if it's eighth notes the passing notes are on the "and" - 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &...

OTOH if you were thinking "what scale goes with a G7?" then it's pot like whether the chord tones are on or off the beat.

This is not a hard and fast rule, just my suggestion of a good way for beginners to start out with melodic and musical impro.

 

[Targa]

Oops , a couple of posts got moved that were better off staying so I've moved them back here. Sorry for the confusion.

You’re still a lot better at handling posts than the average postman.
p.s. Do you wear shorts in all weather?

 

[Pete Thomas]

This is not a hard and fast rule, just my suggestion of a good way for beginners to start out with melodic and musical impro.

But also you'll see in transcriptions it's a sort of convention in a lot of traditional jazz impro. A quick glance through the Charlie Parker Omnibook will reveal this in his more diatonic phases.

Caveat: if you are thinking of scales to use when improvising, they are often best thought of as a "pool" of notes from which to choose your melodic line as opposed to just being a linear scale.

However, the exception to this is the bebop scale which (IMO) only makes sense when used as a scale or scale fragment because the whole point of it is to join up chord tones while keeping the chord tone on a beat (as relayed to me by a well known player).

This done by adding a chromatic passing note between the b7 and the root of a dominant chord or the m3 and 4th of a minor7 chord. This is the typical use but can be used bewteen other scale degrees and types of chords.

 

[mrblackbat]

However, the exception to this is the bebop scale which (IMO) only makes sense when used as a scale or scale fragment because the whole point of it is to join up chord tones while keeping the chord tone on a beat (as relayed to me by a well known player).

So much this.

There are some great discussions of this (and also goes through all the different bebop scales, there's more than one) about how to create strong melodies that conform to the harmonies in Hal Galper's Forward Motion books. Definitely recommended. Essentially looking at how and where to consider adding chromatic movement inside a scale pattern to continue to outline the harmony in a clear way.