Theory & Impro Modes - do you think about them derived from a base scale

[Ivan]

I don’t find it confusing at all though.

Well done you!

 

[mark_addy]

I'm really amazed (really) by people who can think while they're playing. The best I can do is a bit of off-line analysis of a tune that I like (though that often just turns into an arpeggio frenzy) with perhaps some ii-v-i type longitudinal stuff (which is relevant to this thread I suppose, since ii has to be ii of something) if it's easy enough for someone as musically uneducated as me to follow. Perhaps on a good day I can play like I can sing, or whistle (in a familiar key, over some familiar changes). But I don't think I'll ever improve to the point that I can think while I'm doing it. Hats off to you all.

 

[turf3]

I don't use the "modes" concept at all when I'm playing ordinary tunes with changes. I go by the chords and I play the notes that fit with the chord - so when I see "G7" I don't think "hmmm, Mixolydian, so up a fourth, that's C, so the notes come from C major, but starting on G so G B D and F are the pivot tones..." by which time of course three more chords have gone by.

I see G7 and I think G A B C D E F and I play a melody or fragment based on those notes (plus, of course, the usual adjacent notes that will also sound good).

I think the whole idea of using "modes" to get notes to play based on chords is a pedagogical scheme that's gone badly wrong.

Now certainly, back in the 1940s and 50s, guys like Thornhill, Miles, Gil Evans, Bill Evans, etc., worked with using modes as a basis for improvisation, as a change from the ever thicker forests of changes and substitutions that were the style of the time. But these were all experienced improvisers, from the very highest ranks of players, with decades of experience in playing changes based on changes. They weren't attempting to substitute for the (really, rather simple) job of just learning the chords.

This whole idea of deriving the notes that fit a chord from modes, to me requires twice the memorization for half the result, and in the end you still have to learn which notes fit which chord, without the middle man of the mode, so you don't sit there going up and down the C major scale endlessly over a G7; and of course all these modes don't even work for things like whole tones, augmented, sharp 5, and half diminished scales, not if you want to actually sound convincing.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think the whole idea of using "modes" to get notes to play based on chords is a pedagogical scheme that's gone badly wrong.

Yes absolutely. But (I believe and sincerely hope) that idea (which I agree is horrible) isn’t included in this thread which is about real modes, e.g. as in modal jazz, rock or funk, or about modal tunes per se, that abound in folk, Asian, and classical in its broadest sense. Not bebop, swing or traditional jazz.

But having said that, if thinking Dorian, mixolydian and Ionian actually really helps you play Dm7 G7 C then that’s all fine and dandy. I just dislike it as a way to teach chord change based jazz etc.

 

[cappers]

I'm really amazed (really) by people who can think while they're playing. .......... Perhaps on a good day I can play like I can sing, or whistle (in a familiar key, over some familiar changes). But I don't think I'll ever improve to the point that I can think while I'm doing it. Hats off to you all.

If I could play and improvise on the sax as well as I can whistle or hum a tune I'd be very content. I can hear it my head without thinking about scales, modes, chords and changes etc but find it hard to do that on the sax and think about what I'm doing at the same time, if that makes sense?

I see G7 and I think G A B C D E F and I play a melody or fragment based on those notes (plus, of course, the usual adjacent notes that will also sound good).

Your approach is what I'm attempting. I have learned several chords now and no longer have to think what notes are in them and appropriate scalar notes. For AL I'm repeating the 234-8 123-6 phrase with different roots and adding some notes to arrive at the next one. My earlier attempts could be best described as noodling

EDIT 123-6 phrase e.g. ABC-F etc

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'm repeating the 234-8 phrase

What is a 234-8 phrase?

My earlier attempts could be best described as noodling

Welcome to the club!

 

[Taragot]

I think of modes as related to major or minor scales with the same root:
Dorian is minor #6, phrygian minor b2
Lydian major #4 and mixolydian major b7

 

[wakyct]

What is a 234-8 phrase?

"The fall-ing ^leaves"?

Though I didn't think it landed on the tonic/8?

 

[mrblackbat]

I don't use the "modes" concept at all when I'm playing ordinary tunes with changes. I go by the chords and I play the notes that fit with the chord - so when I see "G7" I don't think "hmmm, Mixolydian, so up a fourth, that's C, so the notes come from C major, but starting on G so G B D and F are the pivot tones..." by which time of course three more chords have gone by.

I see G7 and I think G A B C D E F and I play a melody or fragment based on those notes (plus, of course, the usual adjacent notes that will also sound good).

I think the whole idea of using "modes" to get notes to play based on chords is a pedagogical scheme that's gone badly wrong.

Now certainly, back in the 1940s and 50s, guys like Thornhill, Miles, Gil Evans, Bill Evans, etc., worked with using modes as a basis for improvisation, as a change from the ever thicker forests of changes and substitutions that were the style of the time. But these were all experienced improvisers, from the very highest ranks of players, with decades of experience in playing changes based on changes. They weren't attempting to substitute for the (really, rather simple) job of just learning the chords.

This whole idea of deriving the notes that fit a chord from modes, to me requires twice the memorization for half the result, and in the end you still have to learn which notes fit which chord, without the middle man of the mode, so you don't sit there going up and down the C major scale endlessly over a G7; and of course all these modes don't even work for things like whole tones, augmented, sharp 5, and half diminished scales, not if you want to actually sound convincing.

Completely agree that chord/scale theory went a bit wrong.

But this thread wasn’t really about that.

It was around two things: 1. Modes suggested to NOT be scales. And 2. Using a base scale to describe a mode, e.g. Dorian is the mode of the second scale degree of a major scale.

 

[mrblackbat]

I think of modes as related to major or minor scales with the same root:
Dorian is minor #6, phrygian minor b2
Lydian major #4 and mixolydian major b7

So with Dorian I don’t think minor #6. I think of Aeolian as minor flat 6. Dorian IS minor really, for me.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Completely agree that chord/scale theory went a bit wrong.

It actually started a bit wrong. Back in 2000 I mistakenly took on a part time job teaching jazz and pop impro/theory at a university in the uk. I think they wanted to experiment with having an “industry professional” rather than an academic. The course I inherited relied on the chord scale system. There I was telling students that the first five bars of All the Things You Are was aeolian Dorian mixolydian Ionian Lydian or something. Horrible.

Academics seemed to love it because it’s easy to set test questions. So it wasn’t long before I told academia where it could stuff its modes.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Dorian IS minor really, for me.

Dorian is minor for everyone though. But I wouldn’t be surprised if someone comes up with Dorian major 😉

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think of modes as related to major or minor scales with the same root:
Dorian is minor #6, phrygian minor b2
Lydian major #4 and mixolydian major b7

That’s basically the way I try to use, often easier than my ideal of TTS combinations. Find the main defining factor.

 

[cappers]

What is a 234-8 phrase?

Apologies, my shorthand. I should have written 123-6 might be better : F#m: F#G#A-D, EF#G#-C# etc

"The fall-ing ^leaves"?

Though I didn't think it landed on the tonic/8?

My error, the 6th.

 

[mrblackbat]

Dorian is minor for everyone though. But I wouldn’t be surprised if someone comes up with Dorian major 😉

I was meaning that Dorian is the defacto minor sound for me, more so than so called natural minor aeolian.

 

[Taragot]

So with Dorian I don’t think minor #6. I think of Aeolian as minor flat 6. Dorian IS minor really, for me.

This is in fact the way J.S.Bach sees it.
In the well tempered clavier he' s saying that the preludes and fugues are in mode do re mi (Major) and re mi fa (minor).
But whatever you take as minor default, aeolian and dorian are minor with minor or major 6.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But whatever you take as minor default, aeolian and dorian are minor with minor or major 6.

The most obvious “default” is of course aeolian because it’s harder to spell. So it makes you sad.

But the most obvious minor tunes to me that spring into my mind are Summertime and Volga Boatpeople. Summertime is obviously aeolian, the Volga one does not have enough notes to define (or does the Volga have a bridge?) but key signatures and the harmonic minor scale definitely favour aeolian as a default.

Even Greensleeves has an option either way.

 

[JSL]

Not sure I can add anything more useful here that what's already been said. But just to simply answer the question posed in the title, on one hand, I know that the modes can be derived from a 'parent' scale, based on each note of that scale. So, using the Dorian example, I know it's the second mode of a major scale (and mixolydian is the fifth mode, etc.), but I don't think of them that way. I think of them in terms of their structure in relation to the 'starting note'. For a just few examples:

Dorian is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Mixolydian is 1 2 3 4 5 b7
Aeolian is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

But, for the most part, I'm rarely thinking of modes. Mostly I'm thinking of chords & chord tones when soloing. Or sometimes various pentatonic scales. But hopefully I have most of that internalized to the point I don't have to really think about it. Rather, just hear it and play it.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think of modes as related to major or minor scales with the same root:
Dorian is minor #6, phrygian minor b2
Lydian major #4 and mixolydian major b7

The more I think about this, the more I realise that is how I think about modes. ie achieving my objective of not thinking relative to a major “starting on a different note” but each mode definable by its key characteristics in how it differs to either a major or minor with the same key center (tonic or final however you want to call it).

Assuming I already know from my initial learning both major and natural minor scales then I already know two of the seven modes (Ionian and aeolian) leaving just four I need to bother with and so (like Taragot) I think:

• Mixolydian = major but with flat 7
• Lydian = major but with #4
• Dorian = minor but with major 6 (or sharp/raised 6 however you want to think it)
• Phrygian = minor but with semitone step to begin with.

(Hopefully no typos in there)

That only leaves Locrian which I find irrelevant, never having played a Locrian tune or considered I would ever needed to.

 

[JSL]

Assuming I already know from my initial learning both major and natural minor scales then I already know two of the seven (Ionian and aeolian) leaving just four I need to bother with and so I think:

• Mixolydian = major but with flat 7
• Lydian = major with #4
• Dorian = minor but with major 6 (or sharp/raised 6 however you want to think it)
• Phrygian = minor but with semitone step to begin with.

(Hopefully no typos in there)

No typos there, Pete. And that's very close to what I was trying to say. You put it more succinctly. Start with major and natural minor scales (realizing that aeolian has b3, b6, b7 and using that as 'minor' in your descriptions). Then do the alterations from there.

Just to add something (somewhat off topic, I guess) regarding minor, I'm usually thinking of minor chords rather than scales. In that case, I see these 3 options for minor chords:
min7 = 1 b3 5 b7
min7b5 = 1 b3 b5 b7 (usually with a b9 extension)
min/maj7 = 1 b3 5 7 (maj7)

Sorry if that's too far off topic, since it has little to do with modes, but those three chords provide different minor sounds or 'flavors'.