Theory & Impro Modes - do you think about them derived from a base scale

[PiccoloPirate]

"Apologies, my shorthand. I should have written 123-6 might be better : F#m: F#G#A-D, EF#G#-C# etc"

E F# G# - C# 🧐

 

[progger]

This topic is making my eye twitch with excitement, so I'm gonna take some time and write what will amount to a blog post before posting... 😁 Fair warning.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think of modes as related to major or minor scales with the same root:
Dorian is minor #6, phrygian minor b2
Lydian major #4 and mixolydian major b7

Further thinking about this. Although there are no doubt exceptions, it seems standard to think of modes like this, for example in sheet music.

Norwegian Wood (key of E) is in mixolydian mode, and is written in E (key signature) with D natural accidentals. Is not written in A.

Same with other modal tunes, e.g. Maria (Lydian), Tequila A section (Mixolydian).

Phrygian may throw up some exceptions.

Of course the big elephant in the room exception is that conventionally minor tunes are written with relative key sig, so A minor (aeolian) does not have three sharps in the signature cancelled by accidentals. However we don’t even think of most (natural) minor tunes as “modal.”

So my sort of own rule/guideline is that major modes (Lydian and Mixolydian) use the major key sig of the same key center (or “tonic”) and minor modes (Dorian and Phrygian) use the minor key sig of the same key center.

 

[Woodpad]

Scales are associated with different moods. The scales discussed in this topic all follow the custom that music is notated with a combination of sharps or a combination of flats at the left side of the page. In that they follow the major scales in some extent. Ten years ago I experimented with scales that have to be notated with one sharp and one flat. It resulted in some nice scales that are seldom played. I will try finding back those experiments.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Tequila A section (Mixolydian).

Mind you there are some versions on Musescore where Tequila in G has either F or C key sig as opposed to G with F naturals. Tye official sheet music gets it right and shows it with b7 as an accidental which I believe is the best way to notate mixolydian.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Ten years ago I experimented with scales that have to be notated with one sharp and one flat.

Trying to site read non standard key sigs must be very challenging.

 

[mizmar]

scales that have to be notated with one sharp and one flat.

Hijaz, anyone?

In D...
Talking about modes that aren't "modes"
Or "modes" that aren't Modes.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Trying to site read non standard key sigs must be very challenging.

Hijaz, anyone?

View attachment 31636
In D...
Talking about modes that aren't "modes"
Or "modes" that aren't Modes.

I would find that intensely annoying. More annoying (or confusing) for me than when someone notates a tune in E dorian with two sharps rather than one sharp (F#) and any C# as accidentals.

 

[mizmar]

I would find that intensely annoying. More annoying (or confusing) for me than when someone notates a tune in E dorian with two sharps rather than one sharp (F#) and any C# as accidentals.

Custom and practice, isn't it?
Most the material I have in Hijaz (in D) is annotated with just the two flats as above and you just have to spot all the F#s (and finalis / tonic) to know, if you didn't know already, what "mode" it's in.
Like major/relative minor key signatures that frequently annoys, or at least confuses, beginners till they just get used to it.

 

[cappers]

"Apologies, my shorthand. I should have written 123-6 might be better : F#m: F#G#A-D, EF#G#-C# etc"

E F# G# - C# 🧐

"E F# G# - C# 🧐" another of your cryptic comments....?

F# G# A B C# D E F#It might not be the 'correct' way but it helps me remember the pattern. Each phrase starting on the root, next two notes then the 6th - 1, 2, 3, 6. Just a mnemonic for me.

F# G# A B C# D E F#
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

I suppose it might be better as:

F# G# A - D
1 2 3 - 6
E F# G# - C#
7 1 2 - 5
D E F# - B
6 7 8 - 4

This is the start of the A section...

Of course I might be totally off whack here so please enlighten me if I am!

 

[Tenor Viol]

There are many reasons for confusion with this subject... and part of it starts off with the 'church modes'. Yes, there's a connection, but it's not very near to how we use the term, or the modes, these days.

Modes are a type of scale, it's just that most people most of the time only use two scales - major and minor. A scale is just an arrangement of intervals. As sax player, we probably use the pentatonic scales and 'blues' scale as well. There are many different scales.

There are two ways of viewing them which have been mentioned already. Usually when you first encounter them, it's based on starting on a degree of the major scale, so 'Dorian' is on 2nd degree, e.g. 'G' if you are in F maj. This helps with initial understanding.

The other way is to regard them as different scales starting on the same 'base' note. That requires knowing the arrangement of intervals, which the first method gives you without having to think too hard about it.

There was a useful YT video on this I saw a few months ago - I'll see if I can find it and post a link.

 

[Pete Thomas]

There are two ways of viewing them which have been mentioned already. Usually when you first encounter them, it's based on starting on a degree of the major scale, so 'Dorian' is on 2nd degree,

The other way is to regard them as different scales starting on the same 'base' note.

These two ways are how I originally outlined and (so I thought) coined the terms relative and parallel as ways of perceiving them and that’s what I taught. Seems to have caught on. Anyway it’s all here:

Improvising Jazz: The Use of Modes in Improvisation

Explaining how modes are derived and how we can use them in our improvising plus some pitfalls to look out for.

tamingthesaxophone.com

Relative:

Parallel:

Note that I would not necessarily use those keys signatures like that in an arrangement, always use the key signatures from the parallel scale (either major or minor as appropriate) with same key center and add accidentals.

For example for C Dorian I would use three flats (C minor key signature) and add A natural accidentals where they occur.

 

[wakyct]

The other way is to regard them as different scales starting on the same 'base' note. That requires knowing the arrangement of intervals

Perhaps thinking of intervals is a forward thinking approach; you also could think backward, for example in Mixolydian you're going to flat the seventh of the parallel major scale?

 

[Pete Thomas]

for example in Mixolydian you're going to flat the seventh of the parallel major scale?

That’s the way I think, that 7th is hugely important as it is the root of chord VII which, as with the Dorian, often becomes the most important chord in the functional harmony of that mode. Along with Vm(7) which serves the same purpose in the cadence to I (final):

Tequila can either be G FG or G Dm7 G

 

[Pete Thomas]

We have a thread here which is related:

Theory & Impro - What Key Signature for Dorian Mode?

I am writing out the notes for a folk song in D Dorian Mode. My question is: What key signature should I use? I can either write it with one flat or with none. Is there a convention? The point of using a 1-flat key signature is that it suggests a D-minor-ish key, but it feels a bit silly to...

cafesaxophone.com

It is a very interesting question, ie do you write a D Dorian with one flat (so it relates to D minor) or with no flats (so it relates to C major)?

Or does B Dorian have either two or three sharps?

The latter system requires accidentals being written for the major 6, but OTOH gives a clear indication of the key center

 

[Pete Effamy]

We have a thread here which is related:

Theory & Impro - What Key Signature for Dorian Mode?

I am writing out the notes for a folk song in D Dorian Mode. My question is: What key signature should I use? I can either write it with one flat or with none. Is there a convention? The point of using a 1-flat key signature is that it suggests a D-minor-ish key, but it feels a bit silly to...

cafesaxophone.com

It is a very interesting question, ie do you write a D Dorian with one flat (so it relates to D minor) or with no flats (so it relates to C major)?

Or does B Dorian have either two or three sharps?

The latter system requires accidentals being written for the major 6, but OTOH gives a clear indication of the key center

If it's properly modal, in this case Dorian, then C major and D Minor are irrelevant in terms of "allegiance". The only relevance is in the way us modern folk have been schooled in terms of major and minor / key signatures etc.

The rules that we follow with music theory in terms of notation are in place to facilitate the easiest, and fastest reading of music script. Perhaps a modern-day composer writing a piece solely in modes will put a note at the top of the score indicating modal centres, and having no bearing on major / minor. Whether that's more helpful to the players in practice or not is debatable.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Claus Ogerman gets a lot of his colour from the use of modes I believe, in a modern context of course with plenty of voice-leading etc

 

[Pete Thomas]

Perhaps a modern-day composer writing a piece solely in modes will put a note at the top of the score indicating modal centres,

Yes I think that would be useful if the key sig doesn’t imply it.

But I’d still favor the single flat key sig (plus B natural accidentals) for D Dorian as I see it as closer to D minor than C major.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Yes I think that would be useful if the key sig doesn’t imply it.

But I’d still favor the single flat key sig (plus B natural accidentals) for D Dorian as I see it as closer to D minor than C major.

But there isn’t supposed to be any connection to Ionian (C major)

 

[Pete Effamy]

But there isn’t supposed to be any connection to Ionian (C major)

Or D minor