ligs and what they should do

[bobk]

The $1200 Vintage Arnold Brilhart lig discussion elsewhere on the Breakfast Room has prompted to to ask a genuine beginners question. This comes in two parts.

First, apart from the obvious - keeping the reed attached to the mouthpiece - what should a ligature do? Should it keep the reed as flat and tight as possible (in which case I guess the $1200 might be called for)?

Second, how does the location and tightness of the lig affect playing? You can obviously tighten it up a lot or just enough to stop the reed from moving about, but also you can position the lig so that to 'mouth end' of it is as close, or as far away, as possible from the place on the reed where it (the reed) starts to be shaved (sorry if I haven't got these terms right).

So, what do these various things do and what would you recommend for getting a rich tone?

Thanks,

Bob

ps $1200 is about 3 times the price of my sax...

 

[Saxlicker]

You know what BobK,
Apart from the obvious that you mentioned, provided you set it up logically, meaning no wierd extreme positions, I wouldn't even get hung up on anything else. If you experiment ...GREAT! I know I do but make sure you enjoy it.

Sure, positioning will make a difference to the sound using the same mouthpiece/reed set up.(that some people will notice and others will not) You could also argue the rights and wrongs because this is where the sound frequency begins through the vibration of the reed that is then ampified thousands or millions of times before producing your tone. BUT..........

Its stuff for the insane really, because I bet what ever you find consistant about one combination disappears with the next.
The relationship of player, reed,lig, lig positioning, mouthpiece, horn, horn condition get changed by every player from time to time but you don't have to worry about Ben Websters lig to know its him playing and so on for all players to some degree.
I sound like me what ever I play 🙁 :laugh:

You can add to that my experience of a rovner dark lig on a Barone mouthpiece I had. I put it on another mouthpiece that usually had a rovner light and guess what ...it actually brightened the sound. Thats not in the text book!
Curious as I am, I then put the light rovner from that mouthpiece onto the barone (theory being I can't tell light from dark) and that also got brighter as you should expect... completely text book so there you have it!
Don't necessarily believe what it says on the tin!
If you're curious then dabble but listen for instant preference/improvement and leave the theory behind.

 

[bobk]

Thanks! I have been experimenting a bit which really prompted the question. Tightness doesn't seem to make much difference once you are past so loose that the reed moves with your embouchure, but position has more of an effect - middle to longish seemed best (couldn't get good low notes if there was minimal reed showing). I think I can understand why moutpicres make such a difference (source of the oscillation etc) but I am truly mystified by the 'theory' of the lig stuff...

cheers,

Bob

 

[Linky Lee]

I tend to position the reed where I want it (so it is flush when pressed up (bent) against the mouthpiece).

I then put the ligature on careful not to move the reed and place it on the smooth curved part of the reed. I then slightly adjust to get the best fit on the mouthpiece without moving the ligature onto the bit of reed that is shaped.

The ligatures I use only have one screw and I do this up finger tight.
On two screw ligatures I do the rear screw up quite tightly to be nice and secure and the front one is almost loose.

The job of a ligature is to keep the reed's base flush against the mouthpiece without hindering it's vibrations. Having something really tight therefore doesn't help. The best reed is the one that fits the best.

Some people think different materials and shaped give different sounds, but I'm not too sure, I've certainly found some ligatures seem to be 'buzzy' or 'bright and punchy' though I don't think this is the material, more likely the amount the ligature is dampening or not depending upon it's fit.

 

[jadoube]

Bob,

I don't hear difference due to tightness. However position does make a difference. If the top of the reed gets beyond the tip of the mouthpeice I hear air rushing through the crook. Position just on or below the tip gives a nicer sound and no rushing air.

Caveat - No idea if other people hear it, and no idea if the same would be true for other people.

John

 

[Simon]

Apart from holding the reed in place?

1. Allow the vibrations from the reed to transmit through the mouthpiece, so the whole thing works as one unit.
2. Not cost much.
3. Not drill a hole through yer reed - like those old fashioned Otto Link ligs do - or cut it up completely - aka the Berg Larsen 'chainsaw' mpc models and ligs 😛

A mate of mine in Oz plays sax using rubber O rings around a Zager mouthpiece, works a treat. I use a leather Vandoren soprano lig on a JodyJazz alto DV.

Probably a bit like comparing shoes... ?

Simon

 

[bobk]

**** - were there really ligs that involved drilling a hole through reeds? When I said that earlier (different thread) I meant it as a joke!

 

[Bobby G]

Bobk, I think what Simon meant was that the old Otto Link ligs would drill a hole in your reed, rather than that you would need to drill a hole to accommodate the lig.

My personal preference for a lig is the good old Rovner, as there's nothing sharp to dig lumps out of your reed. I haven't notice a lot of difference in the sounds of the so-called Light or Dark models, but I prefer the light merely because it feels to me as if less material holding the reed down will constrict it less; then again, who knows, maybe an even spread of material is 'better' (this could be why Saxlicker found the 'dark' lig to be a bit brighter)? Honestly, though, you could go round and round when it comes to ligs, but I'm not sure anything makes a massive difference. I even have a generic metal 2-screw job that cost me 4 quid that works perfectly well. Having said that, I have a BG lig (I really should use it if only for self-promotion purposes) that I really don't likebut that's only because I'm very conscious of it as it's a big fat chunky thing.

I don't tighten the lig too much, just enough to hold it firmly, plus about, ooh, that much, and I like a few millimetres of the 'shaft' of the reed showing before the cross-cut and shaved bit;as has been said elsewhere, t is seems to help the lOw notes. I also like the reed to be flush with the end of the mpc for a smoother sound, or slightly behind the edge of the mpc for a little more edge - we are talking literally fractions of a millimetre here.

All I can advise is to experiment with what works best for you, and if you accidentally stumble across the perfect combination of reed, ligature, mouthpiece, position of reed on the mouthpiece, tightness and position of ligature, moistness of reed, air-speed and support and embouchure, do not spend the rest of your life trying to reproduce it. That way madness lies. You're lucky if it happens at all and no-one apart from you will notice anyway.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Saxlicker]

Bobby G wrote:
I have a BG lig (I really should use it if only for self-promotion purposes)

Nice one Bob!

Bobby G wrote:
that I really don't likebut that's only because I'm very conscious of it as it's a big fat chunky thing.

I hear that!...
damn huge look on my Tenor RPC which is exactly what prompted me to go looking at woodwind and brass as mentioned in another thread.
Sadly though I do prefer it to the 2 screw selmer gold lac that I bought hoping to replace it.
Maybe I could play in he dark 😛
BTW Bob, woodwind and brass now have soloists in stock but I seem to remember you writiing that you're sorted.

 

[Bobby G]

I'm sorted on alto, but now I'm thinking of a bigger opening Soloist for my tenor, maybe go from my C* up to E or F. But that's another story.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Linky Lee]

I too have a BG ligature and hate the size of the darn thing. Rovner every time at the moment. Though I do like the idea of those Vandoren 'Klassik' or however they spell it.

 

[Bobby G]

I've got a Vandoren lig, it's the goldy-coloured one with the 3 interchangeable plates to hold the reed in place. The difference between the plates is noticeable, but pretty darn subtle.

What makes the BG so chunky, apart from it being made of a material about twice as thick as a Rovner, is the ribbed rubbery bit that holds the reed against the mpc. I never seem to be able to get it lined up right.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Linky Lee]

yes, I have that same problem. It came with my Selmer C* and the Rovner is so much better.

 

[Simon]

Yep, I think Bob sums it up right there - don't get obsessed with it.
Simon

Bobby G wrote:

All I can advise is to experiment with what works best for you, and if you accidentally stumble across the perfect combination of reed, ligature, mouthpiece, position of reed on the mouthpiece, tightness and position of ligature, moistness of reed, air-speed and support and embouchure, do not spend the rest of your life trying to reproduce it. That way madness lies. You're lucky if it happens at all and no-one apart from you will notice anyway.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Simon]

... speaking of madness, I remember on the SOTW once that someone came up with a series of pics showing you how to set your Rovener lig to get the Trane sound, and this way to get the Newk sound, and tighten this way to get the Jug sound...

several guys then explained how it really did change their sound, all this adjusting the screw tension, angle of the lig on the reed etc...

simon

 

[Saxlicker]

:laugh:

I shouldn't laugh....but if you post thing like that you're gonna get me everytime ...

And who am i to argue with 'em?

Sorry I went to Mars for a second... BUT I'M BACK NOW AND I GOT T-SHIRTS FOR EVERYBODY!

 

[Bobby G]

simon wrote:
... speaking of madness, I remember on the SOTW once that someone came up with a series of pics showing you how to set your Rovener lig to get the Trane sound, and this way to get the Newk sound, and tighten this way to get the Jug sound...

several guys then explained how it really did change their sound, all this adjusting the screw tension, angle of the lig on the reed etc...

simon

The screw tension doesn't get a mention when you buy a Rovner Lig, but in their bumf it shows you how to position the lig for different sounds - not by moving it back or forward along the reed, but by tightening the screw while angling the lig either that way.... or that way. This supposedly increases or decreases the pressure at one end of the lig, apparently resulting in a brighter or darker tone.

I can't say I've noticed the effect myself - I suspect once the screw has been tightened sufficiently to stop the reed moving, the pressure at the front and back ends of the ligature will have equalised.

Cheers, Bob

 

[bobk]

I've just got one (a Rovner lig) because my wife is now intersted in learning as well as me and my daughter, so, three mouthpieces, three ligs, one sax at the moment!

I have tried the different angles with the Rovner and, blow me down, they really do seem to make a quite noticable difference. Cynic that I am, I thought the stuff in the leaflet was likely to be marketing drivel, but, if you have the rubber bit across the end of the reed the sound is rounder and if you have the bits of metal holding the reed it is sharper - here speaks a three month, but impressed, novice, so your mileage may vary...

cheers,

Bob

 

[Bobby G]

Rubber and metal bits? That's not like any Rovner I own, but I will take your word for it Bob - I only have the standard 'bright' and 'dark' Rovners. I know you can make a difference in sound by positioning the lig at slightly different points along the length, and I find it's easier to get the low notes with the lig a fair way back, but I only ever noticed very small, if any, differences by tilting while tightening the screw. Maybe I'm over-tightening.

On the other hand, there are those who claim they can detect a difference in sound depending on what material the screw is made from. Having two Rovner brights, one with a dull silvery coloured screw, one with a brassy coloured screw (now there's technical) I can categorically state that, in my opinion, this is hogwash of the highest order.

Cheers, Bob

 

[whatever]

if it is 1200USD then it has an additional function.....to allow quick fund flow in the global economy....