Theory & Impro learning theory and improv

[saxn00b445]

hello
I have been playing saxophone for roughly 13 years but only maybe half that time seriously
i play jazz
somewhere along the way on my practice i started skipping theory and fundimentals like learning all the keys, arpeggios, scales chords, and chord structures and how chord structures over songs work and how to propelry do voice leading, and i just started playing by ear and transcribing stuff without understanding how it works harmonically.
I found i have hit a wall where my playing doesnt make sense a lot of the time and i just play lines that i think sound good without understanding why. i think it is wrong
how can i re-learn the fundimentals and un-do these years of bad habits built up without having to completely re-learn everything i know about playing. i feel like my playing is still at a beginner level because i have not mastered the fundimentals when in reality i should be at a much higher level by now with my playing

 

[Pete Thomas]

and i just started playing by ear and transcribing stuff without understanding how it works harmonically.

This can actually work but only for a very few (possibly close to genius!) players. The rest of us really should get the basics together but the good thing is - you have realised this and its not too late.

It’s not all doom and gloom though. Although there may be some bad habits to unlearn, you will have gained some benefit from winging it and just playing by ear. That is one if the things that players who have learned “properly” sometimes struggle with.

But yes tou should go right back to the basics. Work on very simple chord sequences (even one of two chords) and play very simply - chord tones only and gradually fill in passing notes and suspensions.

 

[Pete Effamy]

This can actually work but only for a very few (possibly close to genius!) players. The rest of us really should get the basics together but the good thing is - you have realised this and its not too late.

I was going to write this too - I’m sure that Chet Baker didn’t lose too much sleep over his lack of theory. But, there was more opportunity to mix in and play with others then, plus, his ear informed him intuitively. Many of us have a little of that but require some academic backup too.

 

[wakyct]

how can i re-learn the fundimentals and un-do these years of bad habits built up without having to completely re-learn everything i know about playing.

Are you the type of person who is very self motivated and organized if you want to learn something? If not I think you'd benefit by taking a course, either online or better, in person.

 

[saxn00b445]

Are you the type of person who is very self motivated and organized if you want to learn something? If not I think you'd benefit by taking a course, either online or better, in person.

i wouldnt say im organized but if i really want to do something i can just obsessively do it nonstop until it has been achieved

 

[Pete Thomas]

if i really want to do something i can just obsessively do it nonstop until it has been achieved

This is good in a way, but less efficient than following an organised regime - ideally with the guidance of a professional.

 

[wakyct]

Whether you learn solo or in a class my one suggestion would be to make sure you always are connecting the theory to the sound of it (better yet to audiate it yourself). I find sometimes in online materials there no mention of how something sounds at all which is a bit daft in my opinion.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I find sometimes in online materials there no mention of how something sounds at all which is a bit daft in my opinion

Guilty as charged re: my online materials. Maybe there is in some cases but I suppose I assume it as a “given.” I always expect people to try stuff on their instrument and, if appropriate, on a keyboard. I will sometimes say that in an introduction but I don’t bang on about it perhaps as much as I ought to. But I suppose you could say that if that is necessary (with adults) then maybe they’ve chosen the wrong thing to learn.

Of course I will describe some sound characteristics, especially when discussing tension/release or when thinking about voice leading and not tendencies.

If I do an actual online consultation then yes I will insist the client listens and analyses. Build up the skill of self-critique.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Playing does not have to make theoretical sense, it just has to sound good to yourself, possibly others, especially if it is on top of backing tracks.
Can you play a fingered G, and create a melody in 3 flats?

Knowing the chord tones, their arpeggios, the associated scales, both in your mind and with your hands, is important.
Sound a note/tone on a keyboard, can you sing all the intervals of any chord/scale of the tonic?

Can you write down a new melody without your instrument?
Maybe sing/hum it first.

Advice from older musicians, when
I was a kid, never let the horn or your body, get in the way, of the music in your mind.

The trick, is to fill the mind.
It should never stop getting filled,
or you'll run dry. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

 

[Colin the Bear]

Theory for me, as far as playing goes, is a tool to find what my ears and fingers can't. It's a route map for journeys I can imagine but can't navigate.

All the theory in the world won't necessarily make a great musician and all the technique you can manage won't touch hearts.

It can identify and label things you like and help you to express them or where to look to find more.

I don't feel like I play any better than when I started. Where we are travells along with us. We feel stationary but are moving along. Sometimes we become bogged down.

Progress is quick at the start and slows the further along we travel. It might feel like progress has stopped, but it has just slowed down. Maybe this is an uphill section with a long downhill section just over the peak.

 

[skeller047]

i wouldnt say im organized but if i really want to do something i can just obsessively do it nonstop until it has been achieved

So I have been playing saxophone, mostly jazz music and adjacent styles, for 65 years. Some years more seriously than others, and TBH I’m a solid B- player. Well, maybe C+…

I have not achieved knowledge about music theory. Oh I’ve studied it, I know some stuff, and I think about music (and listen to it) all the time, but there’s always a new surprise or insight waiting around the corner.

This is the great thing about art. The study and practice of any art will fill you with joy and gratitude and at the same time make you realize what a complete idiot you are.

So my recommendation is treat scale, arpeggio and pattern practice like meditation, make sure you do at least a little every day, and work on every key. Work on tunes, get a good play-along app and try stuff out. Play along with recordings that you like, because style and feel are way more important than what notes you play. Transcription is good, it’s a way to learn what others have done, but it’s not the be-all and end-all.

Remember that “theory” is really just an analysis of what other people have done, it’s not instructions or rules. If it sounds good to you, it is good. There is always another way to look at things, another concept to explore, another aspect to consider. No single person can know them all.

In other words, enjoy the journey. None of us relly know where we are going, yet on we still go.