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Playing the saxophone Jazz standards in Education

nigeld said:
Interesting chord changes.
I think the original was in Eb. They must have transposed it into C for the singer.
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Interestingly, the singer was taught by one of those “Mainstream” guys who likes his students to learn things in all 12 keys. Its a pedagogy thing.

Sadly, she forgot that you arent supposed to sing in all 12 keys in the same tune, whilst your fellow musicians stay in the same key.

These “mainstream “ teachers have a lot to answer for, I feel .
 
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Alice said:
I’m interested to understand what Trimmy is regarding as “improv”.
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Judging by the title, I guess that the entire piece is improvised.

On a more serious note, this is genuine improvisation, and a genuine attempt to explore and widen the boundaries of music, whether or not one likes the result. Personally, I like this rather less than I like late Coltrane, but not much less.
 
I have to say this thread has been an excellent read, and i can respect all opinions that have been written in it, but for me it boils down to choice and a persons right to choose their musical journey, were all adults(with the exception of Trimmy)LOL only joking, so whether we go mainstream or not does it really matter as long as the individual is learning what he/she wants from their own journey.
 
Targa said:
More like this I think.
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:thumb::thumb::thumb:
ah, at last, something I can understand... Wade, do you want to do the backing track, or shall I?

One of the big flaws of the 'Improvise Over The Changes' way of doing things is that there's always the danger that you will tend to improvise the same way on every tune and be so busy concentrating on the changes that you'll forget the individual nature of melody and what the piece is meant to be about. Many of the more astute jazz musicians of the 50's realised that playing over the changes all the time on the same old standards wasn't adequate and some other approach was needed. This is kind of what Ornette Coleman was getting at, that you have to improvise on each piece of music differently and try to express the essence of what the tune is about. In his case the harmony was a result of the interplay of the musicians and not a fixed framework and the melody became the framework to play with.
To a greater or lesser extent, this approach influenced many other musicians including Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Miles Davis, and Charles Mingus - although those latter two publicly scorned Ornette, they did absorb some of his ideas into their own music.... listen to the Dolphy/ Mingus bass clarinet and double bass improvisations on recordings like 'Mingus In Antibes' and you can hear them talking, joking, laughing and swearing at each other using their instruments. Learning to make your instrument talk is a useful skill if you're interested in self expression. It's not only about what you say, but also how you say it.
My point being, that the freedom that is (over) exemplified in the Ono/Zorn duet above is something that is neither encouraged nor allowed to flourish in jazz anymore. The vocalised cries and exuberant yelps of New Orleans are no longer welcome, the free spirited song of Bird in full flight has been reduced down to the dullest possible methodology and if people ever do express something of their inner feelings in jazz anymore then they do it in the politest possible terms.

If musicians don't have much to say for themselves, then don't expect anyone to want to listen - would anyone go and see a young comedian doing a routine by a 1950's comic?
When you think about it, most stand up comedians are far better improvisers than most musicians and they manage to entertain as well. We've got a lot to learn that isn't in the textbooks.
 
altissimo said:
:thumb::thumb::thumb:
ah, at last, something I can understand... Wade, do you want to do the backing track, or shall I?

One of the big flaws of the 'Improvise Over The Changes' way of doing things is that there's always the danger that you will tend to improvise the same way on every tune and be so busy concentrating on the changes that you'll forget the individual nature of melody and what the piece is meant to be about. Many of the more astute jazz musicians of the 50's realised that playing over the changes all the time on the same old standards wasn't adequate and some other approach was needed. This is kind of what Ornette Coleman was getting at, that you have to improvise on each piece of music differently and try to express the essence of what the tune is about. In his case the harmony was a result of the interplay of the musicians and not a fixed framework and the melody became the framework to play with.
To a greater or lesser extent, this approach influenced many other musicians including Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Miles Davis, and Charles Mingus - although those latter two publicly scorned Ornette, they did absorb some of his ideas into their own music.... listen to the Dolphy/ Mingus bass clarinet and double bass improvisations on recordings like 'Mingus In Antibes' and you can hear them talking, joking, laughing and swearing at each other using their instruments. Learning to make your instrument talk is a useful skill if you're interested in self expression. It's not only about what you say, but also how you say it.
My point being, that the freedom that is (over) exemplified in the Ono/Zorn duet above is something that is neither encouraged nor allowed to flourish in jazz anymore. The vocalised cries and exuberant yelps of New Orleans are no longer welcome, the free spirited song of Bird in full flight has been reduced down to the dullest possible methodology and if people ever do express something of their inner feelings in jazz anymore then they do it in the politest possible terms.

If musicians don't have much to say for themselves, then don't expect anyone to want to listen - would anyone go and see a young comedian doing a routine by a 1950's comic?
When you think about it, most stand up comedians are far better improvisers than most musicians and they manage to entertain as well. We've got a lot to learn that isn't in the textbooks.
Click to expand...
There are still jazz players today that are very expressive in their music, just have a listen to Chris Potter.
 
As a saxophone player/music educator who grew up listening to the music of the '30's, 40's, and 50's I am firmly entrenched in music that has form and melody in addition to rhythm and harmony. I can respect and appreciate the skill required to play "free form jazz" (for want of a better term), but I neither understand it or enjoy listening to it. I certainly have no more desire to play that style than I do to perform "rap music" or 12 tone classical music.

An interesting question is: 100 years from now, what music will be known as "standards"?
 
Artistic interpretation has a lot to do with what sort of mind you have. An ordered mind will enjoy producing chaos. A chaotic mind will enjoy producing order.

Me I have a chaotic mind. Thoughts, noise, visions, memories, smells, words, colours, rattling round in a rainbow twister of emotion and bedlam.

I play music because I can and when I do, the bedlam stops. I like to play standards. They bring with them a picture show in an ordered storyboard form and I try to tell the story with my instrument.

I suppose another way of describing standards is tried and tested. The NO bands I sit in with never cease to surprise me with new songs.

I'm a bit reactionary with music. Never a fan of the latest thing. It takes me a while to get used to something before I can decide if I like it.

For my sort of mind, standards, in all sorts of genres, have been a wonderful education. I can only absorb concepts in verbal or written form slowly, if at all. Some old songs can teach me in 12/16/24/32 bars what decades of reading failed to.

I don't like chaotic experimental music...yet
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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