Intonation How to play the saxophone in tune

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

AND because Sax has a different voice/tone for every player it IS all about TONE!

I so agree!

 

[MikeMorrell]

I would just like to say that I still truly miss @jbtsax, his experience and his wisdom that he freely shared on the café. He is not the only member but the very first that - when I first joined the café - I thought "Wow, experienced members like @jbtsax are sharing their long and varied experience for free to beginners like me!" or me, this immediately made the café very special (and still does!). I value @jbtsax's 2018 posts and the comments from other member in 2018.

I'm not so interested in reviewing the additional 2025 posts.

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

Somene mentioned Joe Allard with great affection. Here is an account of one of his clinics where he addressed embouchure:

A highly regarded teacher asked about embouchure after Joe had corrected a pitch problem that student demonstrated !! flat at the top of a Mark VI alto!!
Joe had told the student: "Take more mouthpiece. You are stifling the reed and that is why your are playing flat up high". The esteemed teacher immediately interjected : "But Joe, he has such great control all over the horn and especially down low"
Joe's answer: "Pitch is not negotiable. Control is something to work on." The esteemed teacher continued? ""But he has such a good embouchure" Jpe seemed t have had enough of this "embouchure talk" and said: "I have two students. One a girl has the thinnest lips I've ever encountered. She takes a tiny bit of her lips over her bottom teeth, and I have another black student with huge lips and he takes a huge amount of his bottom lip in. they both have great intonation and great tone and great control." He did NOT need to finish the message. His face said it all. It was clear: Talking about "embouchure" , emphasizing embouchure as THE most important topic is truly not one of his teaching focuses. Also it did not need to be voiced that , as demonstrated thoughout the clinic. Air, tone. Pitch, and Music are what lessons should be about.
This , by he way was an historic clinic in Montreal in the late 60s r early 70s. and Joe Allard was then and continued to be the "go to teacher for all saxophonists , especially those interested in more than the French Classical school.

Incidentally the "esteemed teacher" was my very wonderful mentor and teacher, but I discovered that day "why" my embouchure, a often discussed "aberation" in the McGill saxophone school of Sax worked so well... I was listening to what i produced not looking in any mirrors etc.
Thus, I a completely thankful for everything that "esteemed teacher" had given me realized that as a student one should listen to all sources of information , all ideas,and evaluate them on a musical basis.
However, My music career, which was going very well with that mentor, changed forever when i studied bassoon with Sid Rosenberg (check out that name if you want to hear all sorts of thanks to a brilliant teacher) who was a consummate teacher of music on the Bassoon.... Took those lessons and applied them to the Sax!!!
P.s. Having studied with Sid Rosenberg was one of the most important parts of a great number of very successful and artistically lauded bassoonists! careers.

 

[Pete Thomas]

"Take more mouthpiece. You are stifling the reed and that is why your are playing flat up high".

Some teachers do talk rubbish, you just have to accept that. There are good ones and bad ones.

 

[skeller047]

Some teachers do talk rubbish, you just have to accept that. There are good ones and bad ones.

I didn’t think Shane thought the esteemed teacher was talking rubbish. It’s very hard (perhaps impossible) as a teacher to judge what’s going on inside a student’s body. Embouchure, air and voicing are critical to producing a good sound, these are inside the body. So teacher’s judgements, inevitably colored by the teacher’s own perceptions of what goes on inside his or her own body, may be wide of the mark. Not rubbish, but likely mistaken.

The solution is to discuss things at a higher level, and let the student’s own internal processes deal with those concepts. Emphasize experimenting, trying different things, different visualizations, etc. Only judge the results, and help the student learn what a “good result” is.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Not rubbish, but likely mistaken.

Agreed, my bad choice of words.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I didn’t think Shane thought the esteemed teacher was talking rubbish. It’s very hard (perhaps impossible) as a teacher to judge what’s going on inside a student’s body. Embouchure, air and voicing are critical to producing a good sound, these are inside the body. So teacher’s judgements, inevitably colored by the teacher’s own perceptions of what goes on inside his or her own body, may be wide of the mark. Not rubbish, but likely mistaken.

The solution is to discuss things at a higher level, and let the student’s own internal processes deal with those concepts. Emphasize experimenting, trying different things, different visualizations, etc. Only judge the results, and help the student learn what a “good result” is.

It's the part of playing and teaching wind instruments that is most difficult. All instruments have their inherent problems, but at least every aspect of percussion, piano and string playing can be observed by both the teacher and the student - often, a teacher won't quite know what is going on with tongue position when tonguing, and the student most certainly won't. An added problem can be when inheriting a fairly advanced student - I've often had a feeling from the sound that tongue action isn't quite right / as clean as it could be; but some students have developed a very good poor technique, if you see what I mean. It's not really clean enough, but it's nearly there.

 

[thomsax]

When I just blow mouthpiece and reed I should blow a G on tenor mpc and a D on baryton. That's helped me to play better in tune.

 

[Colin the Bear]

"A very good poor technique"❤️

I AM SPARTACUS.

 

[MikeMorrell]

Somene mentioned Joe Allard with great affection. Here is an account of one of his clinics where he addressed embouchure:

A highly regarded teacher asked about embouchure after Joe had corrected a pitch problem that student demonstrated !! flat at the top of a Mark VI alto!!
Joe had told the student: "Take more mouthpiece. You are stifling the reed and that is why your are playing flat up high". The esteemed teacher immediately interjected : "But Joe, he has such great control all over the horn and especially down low"
Joe's answer: "Pitch is not negotiable. Control is something to work on." The esteemed teacher continued? ""But he has such a good embouchure" Jpe seemed t have had enough of this "embouchure talk" and said: "I have two students. One a girl has the thinnest lips I've ever encountered. She takes a tiny bit of her lips over her bottom teeth, and I have another black student with huge lips and he takes a huge amount of his bottom lip in. they both have great intonation and great tone and great control." He did NOT need to finish the message. His face said it all. It was clear: Talking about "embouchure" , emphasizing embouchure as THE most important topic is truly not one of his teaching focuses. Also it did not need to be voiced that , as demonstrated thoughout the clinic. Air, tone. Pitch, and Music are what lessons should be about.
This , by he way was an historic clinic in Montreal in the late 60s r early 70s. and Joe Allard was then and continued to be the "go to teacher for all saxophonists , especially those interested in more than the French Classical school.

Incidentally the "esteemed teacher" was my very wonderful mentor and teacher, but I discovered that day "why" my embouchure, a often discussed "aberation" in the McGill saxophone school of Sax worked so well... I was listening to what i produced not looking in any mirrors etc.
Thus, I a completely thankful for everything that "esteemed teacher" had given me realized that as a student one should listen to all sources of information , all ideas,and evaluate them on a musical basis.
However, My music career, which was going very well with that mentor, changed forever when i studied bassoon with Sid Rosenberg (check out that name if you want to hear all sorts of thanks to a brilliant teacher) who was a consummate teacher of music on the Bassoon.... Took those lessons and applied them to the Sax!!!
P.s. Having studied with Sid Rosenberg was one of the most important parts of a great number of very successful and artistically lauded bassoonists! careers.

Comparing and evaluating different 'sax teachers' is (as an amateur) way above my competence level! But I did learn a whole lot from Harvey Pittel's YouTube video series on what he had learned from Joe Allard.
This is his 'intro'

View: https://youtu.be/fgsA9Rab4Ww?si=WRyQTd8q1-Meiv3G

 

[mizmar]

Comparing and evaluating different 'sax teachers' is (as an amateur) way above my competence level!

People are different; but, for me, it is the exercise of comparing - of listening to, thinking about, trying out etc - different ideas, from different people, that is a core component of learning.
That and, when you find something useful and interesting, practicing and trying to implement it.
Sure, some people work better with a single approach; fair enough. But for me the interest can just as well be between the gaps

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

Wow! The advice came from Joe Allard. Seems many of you have no idea who Joe is/was. The"esteemed" teacher was the problem... all full of "embouchure" B.S. instead of having the approach a few of you have suggested, experimenting , trying different things.
But i have to say this thread is falling right into the same trap that "esteemed teacher" was known for... do it the way I do it, embouchure is more important than air, leistning, ear training etc etc.
My point, and Joe Allards is: Stop talking embouchure and start dealing with music and training students to hear and listen. Nobody ever "made" a musician. with "solutions to their problems but with suggestions of how they could find the solution.

It's the part of playing and teaching wind instruments that is most difficult. All instruments have their inherent problems, but at least every aspect of percussion, piano and string playing can be observed by both the teacher and the student - often, a teacher won't quite know what is going on with tongue position when tonguing, and the student most certainly won't. An added problem can be when inheriting a fairly advanced student - I've often had a feeling from the sound that tongue action isn't quite right / as clean as it could be; but some students have developed a very good poor technique, if you see what I mean. It's not really clean enough, but it's nearly there.

Someone wrote: "but at least every aspect of percussion, piano and string playing can be observed by both the teacher and the student:. Don't share that thoght with a violin teacher!!!!
But the real question is can the student hear the problem and when it gets better? Again I ask: does anyone think that what you see is more important than what you hear...when playing/studying music? Jo Allard's approach, which I endorse 100% is hearing/listening is what we teach students , not "do it the way I do it"
Hoping I'm not upsetting those who keep talking about what they 'see' instead of what they hear!
I'm only trying to keep the direction of discussion in a direction that is musical rather than visual.
As a further comment i would say the reason many brass players develop better ear training, subtlity of hearing/listening starts on their first day when the discover there are two, three or more notes that have the same fingering! Immediately they are forced to listen rather that see.!

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

People are different; but, for me, it is the exercise of comparing - of listening to, thinking about, trying out etc - different ideas, from different people, that is a core component of learning.
That and, when you find something useful and interesting, practicing and trying to implement it.
Sure, some people work better with a single approach; fair enough. But for me the interest can just as well be between the gaps

Well, in listening to the Flight of the B,B at the beginning I am disappointed to hear many of the weakness of so many saxophonists... Pitch problems, Thin top notes that are not consistent in timbre to the lower notes and speed as something that is more important than those things. 🙁

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

AND because Sax has a different voice/tone for every player it IS all about TONE!

I so agree!

Someone wrote "old folks" use excessive numbers of exclamation points. OH!!! I think he may have included me in that group. However some "old folkes" have seen more of the unusual, weird, and crazy things in the Sax world and hope to help others avoid being 'taken in' by those aberrations! LOL 🙂 !!!

 

[Pete Effamy]

Someone wrote: "but at least every aspect of percussion, piano and string playing can be observed by both the teacher and the student:. Don't share that thoght with a violin teacher!!!!

That was my point really, and I’ve played / been around plenty of orchestral players. All we ever hear about is how difficult this or that instrument is to learn - which may be correct - but the truth is that everything is laid out and can be observed by both teacher and learner. In our world this isn’t the case - it’s maybe just that we don’t moan about it.

 

[Dr G]

Someone wrote "old folks" use excessive numbers of exclamation points. OH!!! I think he may have included me in that group. However some "old folkes" have seen more of the unusual, weird, and crazy things in the Sax world and hope to help others avoid being 'taken in' by those aberrations! LOL 🙂 !!!

You seem to think that you are the only one that has been playing for a while.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Thin top notes that are not consistent in timbre to the lower notes and speed as something that is more important than those things

This is a “modern” disease - particularly among classical guitarists. No dynamic range at all, yet fingers to die for.

 

[Pete Effamy]

But the real question is can the student hear the problem and when it gets better?

Who doesn’t ask this question when teaching?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Thin top notes that are not consistent in timbre to the lower notes and speed as something that is more important than those things.

It could be argued that consistency of timbre, outside of of classical playing, is not a main priority of saxophone playing where you may wish to embrace the versatility of the instrument and the special character of the different parts of its range.

Thinking of expression techniques like growling that can be totally different when combined with subtone on low notes. Or getting the low notes to bark or honk.

Not that consistency of timbre doesn’t have its place when appropriate, but when considering the range you can almost think of it like two (or more) different instruments.

Who doesn’t ask this question when teaching?

It’s hugely important, all part of what was always my aim when I taught, to teach the student to teach themselves. Unless of course they already knew better.

 

[Targa]

Wow! The advice came from Joe Allard. Seems many of you have no idea who Joe is/was.

If you search 'Joe Allard' on the site you will see he has been mentioned a few times.