Intonation How to play the saxophone in tune

[kevgermany]

What does one do while on the "path to playing in tune"? Chop wood and carry water.
What does one do once they have arrived at "playing in tune"? Chop wood and carry water

Have to agree. That's very Zentered.

 

[jbtsax]

Have to agree. That's very Zentered.

We definitely need to get a "Boo" smilie.

 

[GCinCT]

I've been following this thread and find it very illuminating. On the advice of @jbtsax, I started working on playing with a looser embouchure in February. I now have an alto mouthpiece pitch of concert E (below the A=880).

It took some time, but once I got used to it, my intonation and tone improved dramatically. I am a fanatic about practicing long tones and overtones daily, so that obviously helps tremendously.

I am interested in the debate over whether it is better to adjust pitch with lip pressure or the oral cavity. I have read in a number of places (Dave Liebman's Developing a Personal Sound on the Saxophone being the primary) that lip pressure should remain constant and pitch is adjusted using the shape of the oral cavity and the larynx. Part of the oral cavity is being able to raise the soft palate on higher notes, especially altissimo. Using the exercises in the book, I have developed the ability to do this. At least it works for me. I have conscious control over the oral cavity. Previously, I had never been able to hit even an out of tune altissimo note. I can now hit up to the C and play up to the A fairly well when improvising.

I am very interested in hearing how the experienced players here in the Café adjust pitch. Lip, oral cavity? I am always eager to learn more.

 

[jbtsax]

I used to think that the pitch could be adjusted by keeping the embouchure constant and adjusting the oral cavity. Pete Thomas helped to convince me that I was in fact making small changes with the embouchure which changed the pitch thinking it was done by using the oral cavity.

After further study, I learned that the oral cavity can change the pitch, but only in a very limited range of the saxophone around high A and above. In fact there are exercises in which the player plays a D with the palm key and then plays C#, C, B etc. keeping the same fingering and embouchure. I still have a lot more to learn about all of this.

 

[BigMartin]

I am very interested in hearing how the experienced players here in the Café adjust pitch. Lip, oral cavity? I am always eager to learn more.

I don't know. I do know that my intonation and tuning get much better when I'm paying attention to them. When I can hear in my mind the line I'm about to play my body somehow knows what to do to make it sound like that.

 

[Colin the Bear]

It all becomes automatic, especially with a well worked piece. Sometimes I'm so busy listening, I forget it's me playing and then it all goes sideways. I have no idea what's happening biologically/anatomically, It's like eating. As soon as you think about chewing, you bite your tongue.

 

[Ivan]

I am very interested in hearing how the experienced players here in the Café adjust pitch. Lip, oral cavity? I am always eager to learn more

. I have no idea what's happening biologically/anatomically. It's like eating. As soon as you think about chewing, you bite your tongue.

The Colin has put it in a nutshell, again

For me:

Play what you like to play, even notes at complete randon and listen to your sound. Listen like you are the audience

I think that if you listen to what you sound like, you've got somewhere to go to

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

Rarely in my life have I written something that came out exactly the way I wanted it to. I could probably count the times on one hand. 🙂 One . . .

I just responded to a newcomer's question on SOTW and had this sense so much so that I wanted to share it with my friends in the "former colonial empire". 🙂

Playing "in tune" with an accompanying instrument, in a saxophone section, or when playing with another player in its simplest form is having the ability to "match pitch". Until good tone production skills which include embouchure, air stream, oral cavity control are mastered you will be "chasing your tail" when it comes to intonation. Work every day on playing long tones at various dynamic levels to develop control, take some lessons with a good instructor, learn to "listen deeply" to what you and others are playing.

Saxophones do not play out of tune. People play out of tune. When I studied music education in the late '60's - early '70's the term used was "humoring the pitch". On all wind instruments the player has a degree of control of where the pitch on any given note is going to be. When playing in unison, or in octaves with another player, one "humors" the pitch on every note to match the pitch of that individual. It doesn't matter if he/she is sharp or flat as measured on a tuner. It is your job as an ensemble player to match the pitches you hear. This is what playing "in tune" is all about. An experienced player will sometimes change the placement of the mouthpiece during a rest in the music to make it easier to "humor the pitch" when the other player is out.

So how does one "humor the pitch" on a saxophone? That's easy. When playing with a lip or jaw vibrato there is a slight tightening and relaxing of the embouchure which makes the pitch go up and down creating the "waves" in the sound we hear as vibrato. Some would argue that it is easier to "lip down" on a saxophone than to "lip up". There are some players who purposefully put the mouthpiece a bit too far on the neck so that most of the "humoring" is in a downward pitch direction.

Two notes that are in unison, an octave, a fourth, or a fifth apart will create "beats" when they are "out of tune". The faster the beats, the farther out of tune they are. The slower the beats the closer in tune they are. Of course the goal is to tune out or eliminate the beats as quickly as possible by humoring the note. On other intervals such as 2nds, 3rds, 6ths, and 7ths there will not be "beats" that you can hear and count, but when these intervals are "humored" in tune they sound pleasing to the ear.

To sum it up, playing a saxophone in tune is exactly like singing (or playing a damn oboe). Every note must be listened to and made to fit pitch wise into its musical and harmonic context. This can be made easier by having a good instrument and set-up, but even then 99% is up to the player.

Perhaps "ear training" and developing one's ability to hear would be a good starting point. Both NOT well taught in many schools of saxophone !

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

Having done umpteen clinics at schools I made opportunities for students to actually EXPERIENCE playing in tune. Having experienced actual playing ONE note in tune with another... octave and fifth.. it ALWAYS seemed to be a revelation to the students. Then hearing the "difference tone" generated by a tone (1) and fifth (5) ..actually an octave below the (1) ...usually most easily heard in a empty stairwell with lots of echo.... the concept of "in tune" became a physical and intellectual reality. OF COURSE a physics of sound mini-lesson at the same time helps immensely!

OF COURSE 'taming' the overtones and ACTUALLY learning how to support the wind stream so that the overtones are "in tune" would be difficult for MOST saxophonists BECAUSE most Saxophonists have never even considered such topics.
For that reason MANY saxophonists are IMPOSSIBLE to play with because even when their fundamental is 'in tune' their overtones are abhorrently OUT of tune.
This is a serious problem with Bass clarinets, as demonstrated by umpteen recordings of major symphonies all over the globe.
If you are SERIOUS email me at shanedn<<at>>shaw.ca and I will hip you to a lot of helpful concepts to incorporate in your teaching/studying Sax! 🙂

 

[Ghr9204]

I am very interested in hearing how the experienced players here in the Café adjust pitch. Lip, oral cavity? I am always eager to learn more.

It is basically my "bite" (pressure) on the reed. Relax bite flattens note, tightening raises its pitch.

The earlier statement that it is the player not the sax playing out of tune is not totally correct.

When I became more aware of my intonation throughout my personal clarinet's range at the Naval School of Music, I had not realised that my ebonite 1965 LeBlanc Vito (I)'s throat range was about a quarter cent sharp, required me to really relax my jaw to play in tune.

With the 264th AB, we had old Buescher saxes being excessed (sent through the supply system to be donated to schools, auctioned to the public).

Those played atrociously out of tune (I have no idea of their repair history - or by whom - lowest bidder? )

My 1971 Yamaha YAS-61 pro alto was easier to play and in tune better than the school's loaner instruments. (This is why a serious beginner student will do better with a good intermediate or pro horn if issued to him or her, IMO).

My now decade old Venus "gold plated" (got no idea on what plated - obviously not gold) Eb sopranino ebonite clarinet that I bought for under $100 US shipping included has poor intonation but I can play it in tune.

When one learns to play their primary instrument in tune throughout its range instinctively, they can apply that knowledge to other instruments.

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

AH! Another Clarinetist who never was told the Clarinet and Sax are NOT similar instruments... the only similarities are ...a reed and some fingerings BUT only if both play.. Oh Oh I forgot the name...but there are MANY different finger systems on clarinets!
Anyway. The discussion of oral cavity, embouchure etc.etc. are all from teachers who start from the wrong place. The starting place is in the name... WIND. unless the air support is developed and at least close to what is needed then those other ideas take up WAY TOO MUCH" SPACE.
Proof: Any number of different "embouchures" have been used on Sax and in every case there have been players who played wonderfully in tune.
So ask if pitch and tone are "aural concepts" or physical necessities.

Almost every Clarinetist who switches to Sax comes with "embouchureitis" a focus on what the mouth, teeth, jaw are doing.. If you really want to play Sax well play Low Bb with a full mf - f sound and FILL the horn up. 10 minutes each practice session and you WILL develop an completely different appreciation of the role of AIR!

The WORST Sax teaching is done by former clarinetists. The BESTis done by bassoonists and oboists BECAUSE they got great pedagogy on those ALSO CONICAL INSTRUMENTS!

You thought i'd suggest a different ligature! HA!

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

N.B. BECAUSE the overtone series on a clarinet is HALF as many overtones as the Sax. the objectives are often opposite. Bringing out the overtones on a Clar and 'taming' them on a Sax. Modern Clarinet playing... i.e. tone has CHANGED entirely from the early 1950s. today REAL clarinetists... Larry Combs for example actually play great Sax and have adopted much of the air concepts of Sax... making their pitch, and tone so far, far beyond anything accepted in the '50s-'690s. I was in Montreal when that metamorphosis happened in the Montreal Symphony under Zubin Metah. and Larry Combs was the "American sound" that eventually, sometimes painfuly overcame the opposition to this wonderful evolution in clarinet playing!

But then Larry also had the ability to play GREAT Bass Clar.. and instrument invented by Adolph Sax that DEMANDS AIR like a Sax does!

 

[Wade Cornell]

Good to hear Shane's take on this. I think of this only slightly differently, but it's essentially the same thing.

Many play a sax as though it's a piano. This doesn't have to happen, however is linked to starting off as a reader. A specific note/dot = a finger position and some how blowing gives you that note... well it does, but not very nice sounding and generally not in tune. Embouchure is worked on, but not necessarily in terms of intonation and instead just having less of a "honking" sound.

Unfortunately the concentration too often remains on an eye to hands reaction without engaging hearing the note that is to be played. Teaching techniques like "Suzuki" start off a player playing by ear and copying what they hear. The instrument is thought of as their voice and music a "language". They become one with their instrument and can play what they can hear. Reading comes after they have achieved that level of playing.

If someone is learning to play a brass instrument they must hear the note they are playing or it can come out as a harmonic. Bringing this back to a sax... it's an imperfect instrument that can easily be played out of tune, even if the instrument is "in tune". It's not a piano! Hearing what you are playing can give a feedback system that (if diligent) can lead to making the physical changes in one's tone production and embouchure that give that difference. Knowing the mechanics of this may or may not help, especially if the player isn't really listening to themselves. Developing good habits initially is best. Trying to retrain yourself from bad habits is always difficult.

IMHO it starts from the beginning and as Shane said the student needs to be listening and not just satisfying themselves that they use their fingers to match the dots.

 

[Ghr9204]

AH! Another Clarinetist who never was told the Clarinet and Sax are NOT similar instruments...

I'm not sure how you conclude I inferred such.

Wait until further discussion in on-line forums progresses, one fails to identify the clarinet as "tubular" and saxophone as "conical", or refer to musical qualities versus "scientific acoustic" properties ... It's amazing how some get their minds wrapped around the axle on such "gospel matters".

Not referring to you, but I've seen some real doozies on another forum.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

First rule for playing a saxophone in tune, is having one that does not require bodily gymnastics.
Second rule, make sure it's in regulation, and give yourself a chance.
Third rule, switch to the Flute family. Reeds and MPs begone. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

So many problems, due to lack of funds and no in person lessons.
Keeps many forums active. 👍👍

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

Good to hear Shane's take on this. I think of this only slightly differently, but it's essentially the same thing.

Many play a sax as though it's a piano. This doesn't have to happen, however is linked to starting off as a reader. A specific note/dot = a finger position and some how blowing gives you that note... well it does, but not very nice sounding and generally not in tune. Embouchure is worked on, but not necessarily in terms of intonation and instead just having less of a "honking" sound.

Unfortunately the concentration too often remains on an eye to hands reaction without engaging hearing the note that is to be played. Teaching techniques like "Suzuki" start off a player playing by ear and copying what they hear. The instrument is thought of as their voice and music a "language". They become one with their instrument and can play what they can hear. Reading comes after they have achieved that level of playing.

If someone is learning to play a brass instrument they must hear the note they are playing or it can come out as a harmonic. Bringing this back to a sax... it's an imperfect instrument that can easily be played out of tune, even if the instrument is "in tune". It's not a piano! Hearing what you are playing can give a feedback system that (if diligent) can lead to making the physical changes in one's tone production and embouchure that give that difference. Knowing the mechanics of this may or may not help, especially if the player isn't really listening to themselves. Developing good habits initially is best. Trying to retrain yourself from bad habits is always difficult.

IMHO it starts from the beginning and as Shane said the student needs to be listening and not just satisfying themselves that they use their fingers to match the dots.

ABSOLUTELY! Brass players are immediately confronted with a choice of notes with the same fingering and thus START with an ear first approach. Bravo!

 

[Pete Thomas]

AH! Another Clarinetist who never was told the Clarinet and Sax are NOT similar instruments...

I'm not sure how you conclude I inferred such.

I was also a bit perplexed by that, it’s easy to make erroneous assumptions about people.

 

[GCinCT]

It is basically my "bite" (pressure) on the reed. Relax bite flattens note, tightening raises its pitch.

My post was from 5 years and I have since improved my intonation significantly. I don’t use bite pressure. That changes the timbre as well as the pitch. I prefer the Joe Allard school of keeping embouchure pressure constant throughout the range of the instrument.

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

Sorry for what you took as a personal hit, but the Sax world is full, especially in former times of clarinetists who took up Sax and abused their students with concepts that were very ""old Clarinet pedagogy" AND NEVER understood the HUGE differences between the instruments. If you are NOT one of them then you deserve an apology, but if you ARE one then you deserve to be criticized.

YES! I am opinionated, but have a right to be because i worked in both the highest clarinnet worlds and Sax worlds and am appalled at how much false, and misleading Info and teaching still affects the Sax world.
N.B. Embouchure- At very least on Sax I can show you BRILLIANT musicians that "break" all the embouchure rules so often discussed at the beginning level.
Hopefully you can take any "being affronted" and turn it into inquisitiveness. There is so much to learn and so many different ways to approach the Sax that any limiting to one way is definitely a hazard to progress!

But most ... Thank you for the reply. I certainly CAN be a bit confrontational and hard edged, and will try harder to be a bit more gentle...but then real conversation that actually improves one's knowledge/understanding is RARELY as easy and comfortable as we would like.
Cheers!

My post was from 5 years and I have since improved my intonation significantly. I don’t use bite pressure. That changes the timbre as well as the pitch. I prefer the Joe Allard school of keeping embouchure pressure constant throughout the range of the instrument.

 

[Shane - Saxology Canada]

JOE ALLARD YES ! YES ! YES ! I take a lot of my approach from him. I was a a great clinic by Joe where he DIPLOMATICALLY...and only for those actually listening carefully... exposed an "Embouchureitis" professor for his Clarinetitis approach.
Seems the idea that the pitch comes from the ears was foundational to his teaching!