Tone or Sound How to get a vintage sound?

Ruby

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Torrington, Devon
I play in a rock n roll band and want my sax to have that vintage sort of 50s tone. I play a Yanigasawa and it's a lovely sax but I can't seem to get the sound that I'm after. I've seen various mouthpieces and bronze necks etc but not sure what to go for without trying out millions of pieces of kit and spending a fortune. Do I just need to blow harder and be more aggressive? Or is it down to technique? Or a different mouthpiece? Any ideas?
 
Hi Ruby!

I bought a Yani T901 Tenor in March 2008 and then embarked on a journey to find something I would consider a vintage/desired sound - quite a challenge but I ended up with the following additions:

1. Yani Bronze 992 neck
2. Francois Louis Spectruoso ML T280 mouthpiece
3. Francois Louis Basic Ligature
4. Francois Louis Excellence 2 reeds/Marca Jazz 2.5's

The Bronze neck made a noticeable difference - richer and more complex/mellow sound. The mouthpiece was my preferred choice out of the following:-

1. Vandoren V16 HR T8 (very good mouthpiece just a little too bright in the upper register for my taste).
2. Lebayle 8* HR Jazz Chamber ( also very good, complex sound but just too mellow for my taste).
3. Lomax Classic NY and LA HR 6*'s (just a little too much towards neutral, clean and smooth - felt that the Sax was a little too neutral anyway).
4. Brancher J27 Metal and L27 HR. ( Both very good, just a little too neutral to my taste).
5. Vandoren Java HR T55 ( use it on funk pieces - good enough but not exciting, and lacked resonance).
6. Vandoren V16 Metal T77 ( liked it very much, rich and complex sound, but again a little to neutral sounding).
7. Otto Link RG 108 HR, Silver and Gold Metal. Preferred the HR out of the 3, the metals were too neutral and lacked character. Not unlike a Berg HR, focussed sound but not exciting.
8. Selmer Super Session H opening (a real disappointment, quite dull and unresponsive - I played it on Alto for a couple of years).
9. Yani HR 6 _ pretty good, not unlike the Lebayle but lacking some character.

The Francois Louis is definitely my favourite mouthpiece, and also is a narrower mouthpiece than some, so switching between Alto and Tenor is very straightforward. (It uses a normal alto ligature or small tenor lig).

2nd place goes to the V16 HR; 3rd place to the Lebayle HR Jazz. The FL sounded the best overall - excellent full sound throughout, complex and resonant and could do mellow, could do loud, and avoided being over bright. I recently got the FL Basic Ligature (having previously used a Rovner EVO-5) and it feels and sounds even better. I found a larger tip facing did add something to the sound (more expansive and complex, less clean/neutral/damped sounding - most obvious on C2 which can sound dull).

I enjoy the Marca & FL reeds best (tried Rico Jazz Selects 2M and 2H, V16 2.5's, LaVoz MS as well - all pretty OK, esp the 2M's and MS's).

It has all taken quite a while to solve the puzzle but I am now at the stage where I can just play to my heart's content. I would imagine that given your wish for a Vintage 50s tone the Lebayle may be a good option. The one that I wish I had tried was a Ponzol Vintage HR (I play a Ponzol Vintage HR 0.085 on Alto which I preferred to my V16 and Selmer SuperSession. It is handmade and comes with Rovner Lig at less than ?100.

I did feel it was a challenge to get the desired sound but hope that the above gives you some pointers about a way forward.

My conclusion was that the Bronze neck warmed and enriched the sound and the mouthpiece/lig/reed combo provided a rich, characterful and deep sound, with a pleasant degree of complexity and which could be heard by others quite comfortably (many thanks in all this go to Howarth of London who were superb and helpful throughout).

It all depends on what your idea of "Vintage" is (mine is a more 60's concept - Coltrane, Shorter etc. I guess we all have our ideas about this) and what we find most akin to the sound we have in our own minds.

Good Luck
Tom 8)
 
Ruby,
I think you and the band are doing fine. I listened to the MP3's on the bands website and I liked it. To be the only sax/horn player in a band is different compared to playing in a hornsection. You have to blow a little bit harder and use the sax in a wider range. Try to play some barilines on your tenor.

There are no Rock 'n' Roll saxophones or ditto setups. There are just saxes that are more suitable than others for Rock 'n' Roll. I think a Yanagisawa is too good to use as a Rock 'n' Roll sax. But you can get a Yani to sound nasty, evil, greasy.... . It depends on if you want it to sound like that. The same goes for mpc's. If you go back to the late 40's and early 50's most R&B saxplayers used mpc's that we today wouldn?t consider to be a Rock 'n' Roll setup. Wide openings, huge chambers ... and they sat the standard for Rocksax. In those days there were no ampiflication or PA worth the name. To take a solo and to be heard in a place, among hundreds of people who were dancing, screaming ...., they simply had to play loud and to play in a more spectacular way, otherwise the audience wouldn't pay them any attention. No attention - less money, or worst they were replaced. Most of the players in those days were playing a lot and they became very good. Players like Red Prysock, King Curtis .... from what I know, changed horns and mouthpieces over years. They played well on everything.

When I hear Rockers preaching Rocksax they use to recomend:

Play more dynamic when you are backing. Barilines, staccato lines .....
Add Rocksax effects to your playing: False fingerings, some altissimo tones, growls, note bending ......

When you're soloing, don't start at the root tone of the chord.

Play loud!! You want to be heard because you`ve got something to tell the audience!!! As a Rocker you are supposed to project/cute through.

Keep it simple! Less is more! A long tone can be very expressive!!


There are other ways to get into Rocksax. In an interview Clarerence Clemons (Bruce Sprinsteens saxman!!) said about his tone:

' Well is animal. It's an animal that's lives inside of you that you can't be afraid to unleash. Everybody got it, but a lot of people are afraid to let it go, because they can't control it.
I don't practise a lot of scales. I practice circular breathing, which builds up diaphragm and your embouchure. Circular breathing, keeping a note right there on the same pitch 10 or 15 minutes. You do that three or four times a week and you'll create something. You'll see that the animal come out. It's your approach to your instrument, your are mastering the instrument instead of the instrument is mastering you. I look at the saxophone as an extension of myself. It's a part of me, and we've kind of developed each other as we went along'. (CC was playing a Berg Larsen ss 130/0 and LaVoz MH reeds at that time)

A friend of mine had the oppertunity to meet King Curtis and 'kissed his feet' for a couple of times. He talked to Curtis and asked him about his saxplaying and his big tone: ' You blow in one end, you move your fingers up and down the outside!' Curtis was playing a wide open Link with really hard reeds in those days!!

Try to get in touch with a Rocksax player teaching, and arrange a Rockssax clinic/workshop. Pete Thomas must be the right person to talk to in this matter. I arranged a Rocksax workshop (for amatuers) and co-arranged a clinic for professionals last November. Andrew Clark was the teacher/leader. We would be more than happy to come over to England for Rocksax seanses next time Andrew is here!!! Get together 10-12 honkers, a place/room to play and we?ll book the flight!!! Just let me know.

Listen to Sax Gordon on the the song 'Merry Christmas Baby' w Luther 'Guitar Junior' Johnsson. Fine sample of tenorplaying!! I just uploaded the song to my webite on Live 365.

Sorry for my English but this time I'm not out of topic!!!!

Rock On'

Thomas
 
Hi Ruby, Good advice from Thomas and i agree you have a good foundation to work on. What piece are you using is it a Link hard rubber.If you get the piece right the rest should follow. 🙂 🙂

Keep on blowin sounds good to me!
Birdman
 
For what it's worth, in my experience changing the mouthpiece has a far greater impact on sound than changing the neck, and the sax too, for that matter. My favourite rock and roll piece is a Berg Larsen Duckbill 120/0. Work great on my Yanagisawa.

However, having said that, everyone's different, so my best suggestion would be to stick with the same horn and allocate a whole day to trying as many mouthpieces as is possible in whichever shop you can get to which has the widest range.
 
for me, a decent rock & roll tone isn't actually based on a bright toned mouthpiece. I find using the darkest mouthpiece i can get away with (and still cut through dodgy amplification) and adding edge by technique seems the way to go- Jay McNeely and Lee Allen both used very 'conservative' ebonite mouthpeices and, boy- ddi they rock!
Personal favourite mouthpieces for rock & roll gigs- Berg Larsen duckbill 115/2 (relatively dark) & Vandoren V16. Plasticover reeds seem to dirty up the sound a bit too....
Bottom jaw well down, lots of air and plenty of vocal effects (throat growl, flutter tongue, overblowing).... basically ever trick I can come up with to make it sound filthy....
wouldn't get too hung up on which sax- your yanaigawa should do the job fine (Ok- a bronze one is a slightly better starting point for this kind of stuff but a basic Yani's a classy enough bit of kit to take what you throw at it)...
 
Thanks all for such a great response with loads of advice and ideas. I have got the book by Mark McGee on rhythm n blues techniques and I think it sounds like making more use of these will make a big difference. I went through a phase some time ago of buying mouthpieces and being disappointed. I tried a metal Berg Larsen but couldn't get any sound out of it at all. In the end, I went back to the one that came with the sax when I bought it. I think I will go with the advice to go somewhere for a day and try out loads of mpc, bronze necks etc and try out the ones that you've all suggested. Also, re ThomSax - I would be happy to help arrange a workshop. I live in Devon and know a local arts centre who would probably give us a room. It's a residential centre too so we may be able to hire it for a weekend and have a right old sax hooley. I think it sleeps around 30 people. Let me know if interested.
 
Hi Ruby!

Given the subsequent discussion I would not think that a change of neck was that important, unless you wanted a more jazz like sound, but think that a change of mpc would be good - like the Berg's, V16 HR or FL Spectruoso Sphere; something with some edge. It all depends on whether you like metal or ebonite.

Good luck whatever you do
Tom 8)
 
Ruby wrote:
Thanks all for such a great response with loads of advice and ideas. I have got the book by Mark McGee on rhythm n blues techniques and I think it sounds like making more use of these will make a big difference. I went through a phase some time ago of buying mouthpieces and being disappointed. I tried a metal Berg Larsen but couldn't get any sound out of it at all. In the end, I went back to the one that came with the sax when I bought it. I think I will go with the advice to go somewhere for a day and try out loads of mpc, bronze necks etc and try out the ones that you've all suggested. Also, re ThomSax - I would be happy to help arrange a workshop. I live in Devon and know a local arts centre who would probably give us a room. It's a residential centre too so we may be able to hire it for a weekend and have a right old sax hooley. I think it sleeps around 30 people. Let me know if interested.

Your Yanigisawa sax is just fine. When I say it's too good I mean that a cheaper or less advanced sax also works fine as a Rock 'n' Roll Saxophone. Yanagisawa's are delicate saxes.

If you're comfortable with the mpc you are playing now maybe you should stay with it. Maybe you can open up the tip reface the chamber. I did that on my Dukoff bari. Recently I bought a new mouthpiece. I'm trying to get back to my former shape and I needed a new input to my saxplaying. I choose a Rovner Deep-V D40 tenor. So far I don't miss my old Larsens and Dukoffs. I still use Dukoffs on soprano, alto and baritone.

Yes, let's talk about a workshops/clinics. A weekend with Rock 'n' Roll Saxophone in Devon sounds good. I can send you some samples and DVD's/CD's of what we have done so far. I'll send you an E-mail. The latest clinic for pros with playing tips in differnt grooves would be perfect for you.

Last time I was in England/London, I went to woodwind shop to look at saxes. They didn't let me in!!! I rang the bell, dressed up in the nicest Rocksax outfit I could get. Cap, sunglasses and my black leather jacket. It wasn't a Rock 'n' Roll store!!!

Deke MCGee?s book is fine but when we are talking about Rocksax books we shouldn't forget John Laughter?s two books: Rock 'n' Roll Saxophone and Contemporary Saxophone. Great books that helped a lot of players to get into Rocksax. I think Jazzwise is selling them!? In the next Rocksax newsletter (I'm sending out to Scandinavian rocksaxophonsits) I'm going to write about John's books and the man behind the books.

Rock On!

Thomas
 
Thomas, I appreciate the support!

Ruby, in addition to the excellent suggestions that you have received I can forward more information that might be of some help in the rock & roll area. Glad to share the info but it is too much to post on a message board. A 74 page list of Top 40 hits from 1955-2005 featuring sax solos (both US and UK), a list of mouthpieces used by many of the great players and a list of effects that can be used in rock/blues with YouTube examples. JSAXL<<at>>aol.com
 
Ruby wrote:
arrange a workshop. I live in Devon and know a local arts centre who would probably give us a room. It's a residential centre too so we may be able to hire it for a weekend and have a right old sax hooley.

Oooo...whereabouts in devon..??...I'm on Exmoor...see my 'ring the doorbell...Hi from the West country...
🙂
 
Ruby wrote:
I play in a rock n roll band and want my sax to have that vintage sort of 50s tone. I play a Yanigasawa and it's a lovely sax but I can't seem to get the sound that I'm after. I've seen various mouthpieces and bronze necks etc but not sure what to go for without trying out millions of pieces of kit and spending a fortune. Do I just need to blow harder and be more aggressive? Or is it down to technique? Or a different mouthpiece? Any ideas?


Hi Ruby
Bronze crook......If you or your fans/band can hear the slight diff in sound i will be gob-smacked . The M.P that came with the sax is prob a 5*, or somthing a bit small for Rock n roll Tenor. ( i had a look at your set list) For my money ....go for a Dukoff 7M.
The M is not so easy to get hold of , and over looked by many player's that make a b-line for the D, that is too bright for what you want.
Your 7M will take you two week's at about an hour a day to suss-out . You will get some shrill high pich sounds out of it but,...stick with it. Also, have a few diff reeds around.. 2, 2n half, 3.
You will get a big sound ...with a bit of Raaaaasp n more volume.
Good luck with all.

ManEast
 
A Dukoff X chamber can also be an alternative. The high tones comes out well but the low notes are richer and comes out better comparing to the D chamber. I played X7 or X8 with LaVoz MH/H reeds before I bought a Rovner.

Thomas



x7.jpg
 
Have you guys got a hotline directly to Bobby Dukoff? X chambers and M chambers! We've literally spent years at sax.co trying to get Dukoff to send us anything but D chambers....
Old school R&B- Berg Larsen number 2 chamber! Though there's a certain blue mouthpiece with a gold collar which looks like it could be a very strong contender indeedio.....
 
nachoman wrote:
Have you guys got a hotline directly to Bobby Dukoff? X chambers and M chambers! We've literally spent years at sax.co trying to get Dukoff to send us anything but D chambers....
Old school R&B- Berg Larsen number 2 chamber! Though there's a certain blue mouthpiece with a gold collar which looks like it could be a very strong contender indeedio.....

Hi Nachoman
Years ago i worked for a well known shop in Portsmouth. Gabriel's Horn House. Dukoff always make more of the D chambers...coz that is where most of the demand is. They make much less of the others.... & what they do make is taken by the U.S.A retail. You are now competing with the rest of the E.U. for what's left.
I guess you have already had a go at the very firm order approch.
Other than going to Miami to do lunch ..... :whistle:

A very good day to you & all at s.c.uk

ManEast
 
Dukoff mpc's equals to the Dukoff D chamber!?!? I bought the X model in USA for a couple of years ago, a nice mpc.

I agree about the Berg Larsen mpc when it comes to old R&B honking. In the late 70's I had a King Super 20 tenor (c -68) with a Berg Larsen ss 115/2 SMS. A classic R&B setup!! I still have the mouthpiece but the sax is gone.

For some years ago I bought a post-war Toneking and in the saxcase there was an old CZ made mpc (it stamped with F Grol ... something, unreadable). I think it's a good R&B mouthpiece almost like a Larsen. Maybe Berg Larsen got the influences from CZ, like so many other "manufactors" in the saxophonebusiness?????

Thomas



gr
 
Ruby wrote:
I play in a rock n roll band and want my sax to have that vintage sort of 50s tone. I play a Yanigasawa and it's a lovely sax but I can't seem to get the sound that I'm after. I've seen various mouthpieces and bronze necks etc but not sure what to go for without trying out millions of pieces of kit and spending a fortune. Do I just need to blow harder and be more aggressive? Or is it down to technique? Or a different mouthpiece? Any ideas?

Have you listened to Pete's tenor shoot out ? Yani doesn't have the vintage sound for me though you can get decent results. The Martin and Conn sound very good on the Rock n Roll type blowing. A lot of guys used to use King super 20 tenors which have a big sound. Couple those with a Berg and you're rockin.
 
I think you can get a Yanagisawa to sound like a fine Rock 'n' Roll sax!! A Berg Larsen, Dukoff, RPC, Rovner (open tip or very open) .... works fine. Take the Yanigisawa to a repairshop and have the keys open up. I know it's controversial .... but I think the sax get a more open tone (allow you to play louder) and sings better!!!! You lost some action, but less is more. You almost get a vintage Beuscher sound with a RPC mpc on your Yanigisawa!! This is my personal opinion. I/we did that with a Yangisawa T 880 ? (c-92) with underslung octave. Most Yanagisawa players prefer to have thier horns as close as possible to origin and that's natural.

The best selling pro sax in Sweden is P.Mauriat. You can get a P.Mauriat tenor for around 25 000 s e k (c ? 2000). Half the price of a Selmer or Yanagisawa!! Some Rocksax players has replaced thier Selmer MkVI with Mauriats. Even the Jupiter XO tenor is great,
19 000 s e k (c ? 1550). If I'm going to buy a new sax I would go for a unlaquered Jupiter XO. I think it has an open and less focused tone, almost like a King (HN White)!! Very nice. You get a Jupiter and whole bunch of mouthpieces and still far below the price of heavily used Selmer MKVI wreck, ready for a complete overhaul!!!

Talking about King Super 20. There is a story about a famous Rocksax player who played King but when he did a worldtour he leaved his King at home and just travelled with his mpc's, reeds, mic's... . In every country he played ther should be a new Yamaha student tenor that should be proberly setup. I'm sure we've all listen to the music and we think it's great. This is none confirmed facts! A Rocker that plays a Yamaha 23 or 25!!

Thomas
 

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