Beginner impro How important is the "formal" method of learning rhythm

[turf3]

There are times when rhythms aren't clear (this is the main weakness of standard musical notation); there are times when you're not playing them correctly; there are times when you're not playing stuff evenly.

You need a tool box of techniques.

Frankly, since I first learned music reading and rhythm on piano, when I went to band classes and saw the "and", "and-a" "e-and-a" syllables, they were more of a curiosity. Despite years of instruction on piano and in band and orchestra classes and private lessons, I rather doubt I've ever actually used those syllables to parse out a rhythm.

Since my first wind instrument was flute, I tend to use the double and triple tonguing syllables ta-ka and ta-ka-ta on those rare occasions when I vocalize rapid rhythms.

In the real world of playing music, rhythmic challenges for me are mostly around dotted, double-dotted types of rhythms, especially common in Afro-Cuban and Brazilian music, not rapid sixteenths and the like. When no one in the band ever plays on the "one" but you're all expected to know exactly where it is at all times, and especially especially if you're reading a computer-typeset chart for the very first time where the person doing it wasn't familiar with the conventions of jazz and "Latin" rhythm notation, it can get a bit hairy. That's when the pencil comes out and I make the little vertical hash marks at each beat. On occasion I even have written "1-2-3+" over a held note just to be clear.

 

[GCinCT]

I'd like to directly address the OP's question. The standard methods of counting rhythms, "1 and 2 and etc," may not work for you, and I think it's perfectly fine for you to count in a manner that works better. There is also another method that is used in some school bands, of using the names of foods to feel different rhythms. Language has rhythm, too, and is more relatable to most people. Here's a YouTube video that explains it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNI20qCdkoo&ab_channel=CentreMusicHouse

 

[mizmar]

In my opinion I think what you are doing now is going to be detrimental in the long run

But none of these tools are techniques for playing - except, maybe, drum machine or such. They are tools for a/ developing an internalized feel for time & rhythm in general and general rhythmic patterns. And b/ getting on top of specific phrases ones struggling with.
This was my point about metronome clicks on 16ths (at low BPM) - it's just a tool to get on top of some pattern or phrase. Repeat that phrase enough, upping the BPM etc. to get it in the fingers and you'll be sorted and can go back to normal time keeping... Till you hit the next problem

 

[mizmar]

Anyway, as far as clapping and chanting goes, let's remember what one aspires to

View: https://youtu.be/iurhjlBum0o

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'd like to directly address the OP's question. The standard methods of counting rhythms, "1 and 2 and etc," may not work for you, and I think it's perfectly fine for you to count in a manner that works better. There is also another method that is used in some school bands, of using the names of foods to feel different rhythms. Language has rhythm, too, and is more relatable to most people. Here's a YouTube video that explains it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNI20qCdkoo&ab_channel=CentreMusicHouse

This is a good method, but IMO falls down with some food. You have to be careful about the natural accents in the words, for example large pepperoni, there is a strong accent on the O of pepperOni, hence you want that syllable to fall on a beat and I would naturally think of the second row in the table, not the third

large	pep	per	o	ni
eighth	sixteenth	sixteenth	eighth	eighth
quarter	sixteenth	sixteenth	sixteenth	sixteenth

 

[JSL]

For 8th notes, it's always "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and...". However, I've never felt comfortable with the "and".

Learning to play rhythmically and with good time can be approached with a number of methods. But one thing is indispensable, imo. You have to learn to 'feel' the rhythm. And if that sounds too ambiguous, it's a very real thing. Using the 'and' of 8th notes is a good example. Whether you call it 'and' or not (I'll call it the upbeat), the upbeat has a very distinct feel, different from the downbeat. If you start a phrase on the upbeat, leading into the downbeat, it sounds and feels different than starting a phrase on the downbeat. Try starting a series of 8th notes both on the downbeat and on the upbeat (an 'approach' note) and you'll hear it. So, getting a strong feel for both the downbeat and upbeat is very important and useful.

This is difficult to explain, but fairly easy to feel, once you get the hang of it. So, I won't beat it (pun intended) to death anymore. Aside from saying that tapping your foot down on every upbeat and downbeat (every note in an 8th note phrase) is not a good idea. It doesn't distinguish the difference between upbeats and downbeats. If you tap your foot on the downbeats only, while lifting it on the upbeats, you'll get a much better feel for the difference between them.

 

[Pete Thomas]

And there's always the more advanced version for 3 against 2.

• Tap hands together on “Nice”
• Right hand on “cup”
• Left hand on “of”
• Right hand on “tea”

 

[GCinCT]

This is a good method, but IMO falls down with some food. You have to be careful about the natural accents in the words, for example large pepperoni, there is a strong accent on the O of pepperOni, hence you want that syllable to fall on a beat and I would naturally think of the second row in the table, not the third

large	pep	per	o	ni
eighth	sixteenth	sixteenth	eighth	eighth
quarter	sixteenth	sixteenth	sixteenth	sixteenth

Excellent point. In the video, they use strawberry for an eighth (quaver?) followed by two sixteenths (semiquavers?). I learned strawberry to count a triplet. It can be confusing for sure.

 

[wakyct]

But none of these tools are techniques for playing - except, maybe, drum machine or such. They are tools for a/ developing an internalized feel for time & rhythm in general and general rhythmic patterns.

That's true, but as JSL commented in his post after yours there are some methods like evenly tapping on every eighth note that might be worse than others.

 

[mizmar]

That's true, but as JSL commented in his post after yours there are some methods like evenly tapping on every eighth note that might be worse than others.

Might. Not 100%. First, it depends on genre. Some forms of music expect very even, straight 8ths or 16ths or dotted this or that. There is no one feel. Also, if one is - as one has! - struggled with a fractional rest pick-up, for example, getting it on the click is a good start. Start. Again these are tools and shouldn't be used beyond what's necessary.
The flute piece I mentioned above is played to the Fox rhythm; Dum TaKa (so not on/off beat as such). Started with the metronome on 70 or whatever, got the thing in the fingers, upped the BPM, put the click on 1 etc, then switched to a app playing D-TK, then a recording of a real drummer with fills and frills... Building up the feel over a - more or less - solid fingering and rhythmic foundation.

But I'm not a great musician, with poor timing etc. So that's what I do. Use tools.

 

[JSL]

@mizmar, even with straight 8ths it's important to feel the upbeats & downbeats. Especially when the rhythm is syncopated, with lone 8th notes on the upbeat. You have to feel those upbeats vs the downbeat.

 

[mizmar]

@mizmar, even with straight 8ths it's important to feel the upbeats & downbeats. Especially when the rhythm is syncopated, with lone 8th notes on the upbeat. You have to feel those upbeats vs the downbeat.

My "might" applied to the quoted text "might be worse".
If one is struggling with stable timing, feel is out the window anyway. However - I found, anyway - once the rhythm clicked in, one has a basis to feel whatever.
Seriously, I've had hours of ticking off from my teacher for unstable 16ths, missing a syncopated note or whatever; and "yeah but the feel..." Isn't going to butter any turnips.
It's different levels of refinement.

 

[skeller047]

I don’t think syllables matter. Accuracy does matter. Whether you say rikki-tikki-tavi or yabba-dabba-do doesn’t matter if you can play in time.

I recommend working with subdivisions until you feel comfortable without tapping your feet, and just playing them accurately without feeling tense. Then up your game, and cut the metronome in half. And then again. So you can do a whole measure on a single click.

ChadLB put up a video a little while ago where he tried to see how close he could keep time with a metronome clicking once every 8 bars. Or maybe it was 32 bars…. The point of working on this is to develop your internal clock.

Keeping good time is everything and it’s worth being aware of at all times.

 

[atwl77]

And there's always the more advanced version for 3 against 2.


View attachment 30024

• Tap hands together on “Nice”
• Right hand on “cup”
• Left hand on “of”
• Right hand on “tea”

That's a little bit like polyrhythm exercise, isn't it?

I tried a different one where you count 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4... while clapping every two beats for 4 bars, then clap every 3 beats for 4 measures, and alternate between the two... it was quite doable, but I imagine if I also had to read pitch and make the correct fingerings on an instrument, my fingering would go haywire.

 

[mizmar]

I guess because I was searching for the Taal stuff, YouTube threw this my way; should anyone be looking for a rabbit hole to dive down...

View: https://youtu.be/F4mAZfmhJ1A

 

[mizmar]

it was quite doable, but I imagine if I also had to read pitch and make the correct fingerings on an instrument, my fingering would go haywire

Don't do that. Seriously!
The Clapping, tapping, speaking metronom tricks stuff is just to develop the feel, to train the brain; not for playing. Maybe different tools to refine playing; get things solid... It's a process and not a fast one

In your doorbell post I suggested an online rhythm training course. There are others; but it is probably valuable to do something methodical like that rather than pick bits and pieces from this thread or elsewhere.

 

[atwl77]

Don't do that. Seriously!
The Clapping, tapping, speaking metronom tricks stuff is just to develop the feel, to train the brain; not for playing. Maybe different tools to refine playing; get things solid... It's a process and not a fast one

But isn't that the point? To be able to read and play the melody according to the written rhythm.

If I already know how a song goes, I can more or less just play it without really thinking about the rhythm and just going with the flow of the backing track, but if I'm unfamiliar with a song I need to be able to somehow derive the rhythm from the notes (e.g. counting/tapping) and play the melody correctly.

 

[mizmar]

but if I'm unfamiliar with a song I need to be able to somehow derive the rhythm from the notes

Certainly play with a metronome or such. Possibly varying BPM, click on 1,2,3,4 or 1,3 or 2,4 or just 1 etc. and if you're comfortable with the rhythmic feel, it should be fine. But if you're not comfortable with the rhythmic form; that's where counting and clapping etc before playing can help. Also, not mentioned, clapping, counting along with recordings

 

[Tenor Viol]

I. haven't got time this morning to read all of the thread as I'm still at music summer school... but have a look at Kodaly technique/method. This uses a mix of vocalisations using standard sounds for each type of rhythm plus hand gestures.

It's often used with singers, but it is appropriate to all

 

[Pete Effamy]

Like @turf3 and I think @Pete Thomas I’m not an advocate of using words or given syllables as at some point it will become very difficult to say them with certain rhythmic combinations and certainly too fast. I tend to think in terms of whatever vocabulary I’ve made up for drums, particularly hi hats. So long as you feel each beat you don’t need to vocalise each part of a beat, you can feel it. Turf used the example of triple tonguing - why is it good? Because it’s fast to say.
Rhythm is usually a 2, or a 3 when you break it down.

I hate the useage of “walk-ing”, etc. it doesn’t teach you anything with regard to the written music, and another problem is that longer words will be pronounced with different accents depending upon where you come from and that can be confusing in music.