Saxophone beginners How do you swing semiquavers?

[BigMartin]

Not really - in a big band it's more a case of Follow the Leader.
Different bands swing things to different degrees. Like Nick says, it depends on the speed. The best explanation of swing I've ever been given was the bouncing ball analogy; if you're playing a slow piece the swing rhythm is similar to bouncing a basketball or similar from about chest high, first quaver of the pair is when the ball bounces, second when your hand pushes it down again. As the music gets faster, your "hand" gets closer to the floor, and the gap between bounce and push gets more even.
This explanation works better in person, hope it made sense!

I think so, but I'm not always a good judge of what does/doesn't make sense ;}.

Usually semi-quavers don't swing, if you wanted a 2:2:1:1 pattern you'd have to notate it as a triplet bracket over quaver:quaver😛air of semiquavers. The exception would be double-time for the whole band, which would either be written as such or if only temporary might be scored as dotted-semi/demisemiquaver pairs.

Cheers,

Nick

I don't mean to waste even more of your time, but this is what's confusing me. So if someone is playing (even) semiquavers and someone else is playing (swung) quavers, the 3rd semi doesn't coincide with the 2nd quaver and we get some kind of cross-rhythm. Is that right?

Thanks,

Martin

 

[BigMartin]

Another "Maverick" Wagnerist was one Adolf Hitler!
Thank God there weren't two of him!!!!!

Sadly, Hitler had good reasons for liking Wagner. W was a truly dreadful man who wrote some great music. I'm with composer Steve Reich, who said "you just have to lump it".

(Still, if it hadn't been for Hitler my dad would have stayed in Poland and I would never have been born. What a loss to the world that would have been )

Cheers,

Martin

 

[Justin Chune]

Someone once asked how to swing crochets? After he had been advised to just play them straight, Doo Doo Doo Doo etc someone else chimed in with this advice. Doo Den Do Dit. swing. I don't know if it works, I just noted the advice.

Jim.

 

[stefank]

(Still, if it hadn't been for Hitler my dad would have stayed in Poland and I would never have been born)

Cheers,

Martin

Me too. It makes you think.

 

[saxnik]

😛

I think so, but I'm not always a good judge of what does/doesn't make sense ;}.

Ta!

I don't mean to waste even more of your time, but this is what's confusing me. So if someone is playing (even) semiquavers and someone else is playing (swung) quavers, the 3rd semi doesn't coincide with the 2nd quaver and we get some kind of cross-rhythm. Is that right?

Yep. As I said before, I don't know of any examples of this rhythm being required, unless explicitly stated. (my quote in your post came out badly - I've edited the original now!) More often the pattern is 2:1:2:1 if you're going to swing since swing is necessarily in pairs.

If the two voices don't match rhythmically, this is where your musicianship comes in - and why you usually have a bandleader to act as reference for this sort of question. In a 'proper' orchestra the conductor will tell you his/her preference for how these things should sound.

In a big band (if there's no conductor) you have to copy the style that the lead players are playing - if you're playing swung semiquavers next to a lead alto playing straight semiquavers, you're wrong! If you think they should be swung, it's a case of checking with the band leader or asking the leader if they prefer your way. If the styles don't match within the section, you get a mess that isn't very nice to listen to (i.e. that cross-rhythm you were talking about).
In a full band soli section the first alto has to match the first trumpet player (since they're supposed to be the loudest) and everyone else follows.

Anything else?! 😛

Nick

 

[saxnik]

Someone once asked how to swing crochets? After he had been advised to just play them straight, Doo Doo Doo Doo etc someone else chimed in with this advice. Doo Den Do Dit. swing. I don't know if it works, I just noted the advice.

Jim.

I like that - listen carefully to Basie's band, they do this! In your average jive band the bass player will just chop the end off each crotchet to really get the feel - the piano player and drummer kind of 'chop' off the beat note with their swung offbeats.

If you get chance to see Ray Gelato's band, or Benny Lee and the Whistle Stop Five on your travels, you'll see what I mean! (Other swing dance bands are available!)

Nick

 

[BigMartin]

If the two voices don't match rhythmically, this is where your musicianship comes in - and why you usually have a bandleader to act as reference for this sort of question. In a 'proper' orchestra the conductor will tell you his/her preference for how these things should sound.

I hope one day to be in that situation!

In a big band (if there's no conductor) you have to copy the style that the lead players are playing - if you're playing swung semiquavers next to a lead alto playing straight semiquavers, you're wrong! If you think they should be swung, it's a case of checking with the band leader or asking the leader if they prefer your way. If the styles don't match within the section, you get a mess that isn't very nice to listen to (i.e. that cross-rhythm you were talking about).

Still a bit confused, but I think i can live with it until I get that job I was just talking about .

(Incidentally, the "Mr Cool" emoticon is smoking. On a saxophone website? Have they gone mad?)

It was quavers vs semis I was worried about, but maybe they just don't score things that way, so it's not really a problem. What set me off on this was a "Guest Spot" playalong book with some semis in their rendition of "Satin Doll".

Anything else?! 😛

Nick

Nah, I reckon we've all wasted quite enough of our lives on this. Thanks for the insights. I've enjoyed the Wagnerian banter, too.

Cheers

Martin

 

[Morgan Fry]

On the basis of "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people" ;}:

I realise this is more of an academic than a practical question (I just wish I could play accurately enough for the answer to make a difference!), but I would like to know what I'm aiming for at least in principle. Also, I used to be a mathematician, and my mind just runs this way.

Suppose we're playing a piece with a "swing" rhythm, and we're interpreting quavers as a triplet figure, so we subdivide crotchets in a 2:1 ratio. How do we play semiquavers?

a) Divide each quaver evenly, so a crotchet becomes 2:2:1:1

b) Divide each quaver into another triplet, so we get 4:2:2:1

c) Make the ratio of each note to the next be constant while keeping the 3rd semi in the same place that the second quaver was (hope that makes sense). I think this one involves solving a cubic equation which I have no intention of doing (even I'm not that sad).

d) None of the above.

Any suggestions (apart from "you should get out more")?

Cheers

Martin

Don't waste your time thinking about this, just listen. There's more to swinging than you can notate readably or mathematically subdivide. Where the accents are, the articulation, what notes are ghosted, where you place the beat in relation to where the rhythm section is, are all as important as how long or short some notes are. Play along with the Basie band, or with Dexter or Sonny or Bird. The only way anybody ever learned to swing is by listening and feeling it. If you don't listen to music that swings you'll never be able to do it no matter how it's explained to you.

 

[BigMartin]

Don't waste your time thinking about this, just listen. There's more to swinging than you can notate readably or mathematically subdivide.

That sounds far too sensible for me! This is exactly why jazz music is so fascintating but also scary for me. I've really only done classical music before, and if it ain't written down in front of me, I tend to just freeze.

Where the accents are, the articulation, what notes are ghosted, where you place the beat in relation to where the rhythm section is, are all as important as how long or short some notes are.

What does "ghosted" mean? See, I told you this stuff was scary. I'd better look that one up before halloween.

Play along with the Basie band, or with Dexter or Sonny or Bird.

If only! Give me a few years and I'll let you know how it went.

The only way anybody ever learned to swing is by listening and feeling it. If you don't listen to music that swings you'll never be able to do it no matter how it's explained to you.

And if I do listen but can't figure out what the hell's going on ? That's the other thing I've learned about jazz: you have to be able to hear a lot more than I'm used to. My typical reactions to a jazz number are things like "that was pretty" or "that was fun" or in Bird's case typically "what the hell was that all about?". I guess it's just going to be a long road...

Thanks for the tips,

Martin

 

[TomMapfumo]

It sounds like its way too early to be trying to work out whether or not to swing semiquavers in your own development, but you can get there, I'm sure.

"Ghosting" is where you may play a very brief note just before playing the main note in any passage of music. An example in my own experience is from Cantaloupe Island (Herbie Hancock); immediately before a riff that goes D F D F G G it is common to play a C sharp. In written music it is represented as a much smaller note just before a normal size note, and doen't really qualify as a semi-quaver or less - played as briefly as possible, as if you are not sure that you heard it - these sorts of things are found in Jazz.

As Morgan rightly said you need to get a feel for it, and may only know when you know, not before............

Kind regards
Tom😎

 

[stefank]

....and, as one of my former lecturers used to remark: "Music is stuff you hear, not things written down on paper".

There are some styles of music where there is a very correspondence between what is written on the page and what is played. Only some.

 

[BigMartin]

It sounds like its way too early to be trying to work out whether or not to swing semiquavers in your own development, but you can get there, I'm sure.

Yeah, I sort of knew that (the "too early" bit, not quite so sure about the "you can get there", but thanks for the pep talk ;}).

"Ghosting" is where you may play a very brief note just before playing the main note in any passage of music. An example in my own experience is from Cantaloupe Island (Herbie Hancock); immediately before a riff that goes D F D F G G it is common to play a C sharp. In written music it is represented as a much smaller note just before a normal size note, and doen't really qualify as a semi-quaver or less - played as briefly as possible, as if you are not sure that you heard it - these sorts of things are found in Jazz.

Is that the same as a "scoop"? If so I think I used to call 'em acciaccaturas (spelling?) but they could be either above or below the following note and they were kind enough to write 'em in the score for me.

Cheers

Martin

 

[BigMartin]

....and, as one of my former lecturers used to remark: "Music is stuff you hear, not things written down on paper".

There are some styles of music where there is a very correspondence between what is written on the page and what is played. Only some.

But my problem is how to go from "stuff you hear" to "stuff you make". I wish I could afford some lessons.

 

[TomMapfumo]

Yes, you're right about the alternative words for "ghosting" - acciawhatnot & scoop!

Don't talk - Play!;}

Lots of love
Tom😎

 

[814jazzer]

Actually, 16th notes (as we refer to semi-quavers, I believe) can be swung just like 1/8 notes (quavers). Simply play them in a double-time swing fee. That is, imagine that there is a swing feel at exactly twice as fast as the speed of the tune you're playing.

Crotchet-y, quavery, semi-quaverly, and even semi-demi-hemi-quaverly Yours,
~ Rick

 

[Nick Wyver]

Actually, 16th notes (as we refer to semi-quavers, I believe) can be swung just like 1/8 notes (quavers). Simply play them in a double-time swing fee. That is, imagine that there is a swing feel at exactly twice as fast as the speed of the tune you're playing.

Crotchet-y, quavery, semi-quaverly, and even semi-demi-hemi-quaverly Yours,
~ Rick

Could you point me at a recording where this is employed? I'm intrigued.

Regarding 'ghosting' - I believe it's nothing to do with pitch changes (scoop, etc) but implying the existence of a note - hence the 'ghost bit'. Here's a couple of quotes culled from SOTW:

My teacher told everyone in class "Think of the note reallly really hard and finger it, but don't play it" That and listening to people who really know how to do it works for me...

What really makes ghosting effective, at least to my ear, has more to do with rhythm than with the note itself. I think a good approach would be to practice leaving the note out entirely to get the timing right (usually you are introducing a more syncopated feel), then experiment with "touching" the note lightly so you are only implying it. This is hard to describe, but focus on the rhythmic feel first and foremost. That's my approach. Others may have some different ideas.

 

[saxnik]

Could you point me at a recording where this is employed? I'm intrigued.

As I said in a previous reply to you (post #10), have a listen to Billie Holiday, 'That Old Devil Called Love'. The semi's (16th's if you insist Rick) are swung because the music implies a doubling of the tempo ("double time") for a bar or so between the phrases.

Regarding 'ghosting' - I believe it's nothing to do with pitch changes (scoop, etc) but implying the existence of a note - hence the 'ghost bit'.

Yep, completely agree with that. Again, I refer you to the Basie Big Band! All these techniques are different and equally valid, but it really is a case of trying to copy the sound of each style to get it right. It doesn't matter what each one is called unless you're referring to them in a rehearsal or on a forum!

Cheers,

Nick

 

[Nick Wyver]

As I said in a previous reply to you (post #10), have a listen to Billie Holiday, 'That Old Devil Called Love'. The semi's (16th's if you insist Rick) are swung because the music implies a doubling of the tempo ("double time") for a bar or so between the phrases.

Oops, so you did.

Yes, I see what you mean. Interesting that it's only the horns that are swinging - the strings play resolutely straight semis over the top.

 

[saxnik]

Dare I say it - string players can't swing?!! There, I said it. Grappelli excepted obviously...

Nick

P.S. I notice that Thomsax has put a couple of videos of instruction on 'Ghosting' online - not sure I use this technique myself, will have to go away and investigate...

 

[johnboy]

Well this is getting to be a bit of a worry for me, I'm agreeing with Nick (or think I am) twice in one day.
I always understood "ghosting" was playing a semitone higher or lower into the note you want.