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Playing the saxophone How do offset tone holes and ergonomics improve your speed?

Woodpad

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Most saxophones are made with offset tone holes on the main stack. It was introduced on the SBA with some other changes as a means to play faster.
For fast action in your hands it is advised to keep your fingers and wrist in an arched shape to make it easy for the tendons and muscles to move fast.
When playing you can see the muscles move in you lower arm.
Now I am a bit puzzled how this works on an alto. When I play with offset tone holes my right arm arm is closer to the body and my hand and wrist lose the arch shape. So this should affect the ergonomics in a negative way. Another ergonomic effect of offset tone holes is that you have more wriggle room for your fingers, but this will not make them wriggle faster.

Does anyone know how offset tone holes improve finger speed?
 
Solution
There are many of us who don't think anything WAS wrong with the old layout (Conn, Martin, Buescher up to the 400, and King up to about halfway through the Super 20 run).

The THEORY (and the French are great ones for doing things according to theory) is that because all your other LH fingers close the keys by clamping in (like squeezing a ball), the little finger should do the same. Unfortunately designing the LH keywork according to this theory leads to some issues.

For one thing, Sax assigned to the LH little finger some of the heaviest work on the horn. We can argue that it should be a stronger more flexible finger that does those bell keys (like, say, the right thumb), but that decision's made. In the original Sax design...
I think the idea is to keep your wrists in a straight line rather than curved. The offset keys work well when holding the saxophone to the right side. This is also why the bell points left on thos models.

I have an SBA alto, and a couple of Beaugnier-made altos with straight line keywork. It takes about 5 seconds for me to make the adjustment, then it’s back to regular saxophone thought processes. I have a much harder time with the different pinky-table layouts.
 
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I think the idea is to keep your wrists in a straight line rather than curved. The offset keys work well when holding the saxophone to the right side. This is also why the bell points left on thos models.

I have an SBA alto, and a couple of Beaugnier-made altos with straight line keywork. It takes about 5 seconds for me to make the adjustment, then it’s back to regular saxophone thought processes. I have a much harder time with the different pinky-table layouts.
Both straight and curved wrists work. a lot of flute players play with curved wrists. For me the backwards curved wrist is a bit suspect of bad ergonomics.
 
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I remember when I took a Yama alto and an old Conn into my osteopath, I had a wrist injury years ago and it regularly flared up now and again and was at the time.

He wanted to see how one holds and plays the sax. I demonstrated on the Conn, then told him that the generally accepted line in sax-land is that the offset like on the Yama is 'ergonomically superior'.

He literally started laughing.
 
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I don't believe it has anything to do with ergonomics. I believe it is a function of Selmer's relocation of the bell keys to the outside of the horn and running the bell key rods down the middle. In order to have enough room to have key arms of appropriate length, on both side of the lever, and to keep the action of G# and bis Bb 1 and 1 closure without lost motion, I believe the designers at Selmer realized that offsetting the two stacks slightly would mkae packaging all that stuff a great deal easier. Thus the offset stacks. This was then seized upon by the marketeers as a selling point ("faster action!"). Of course anyone who's played a Conn 6M knows that "fast action" doesn't depend on right side bell keys or offset stacks.
 
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I don't believe it has anything to do with ergonomics. I believe it is a function of Selmer's relocation of the bell keys to the outside of the horn and running the bell key rods down the middle.
Didn't the RH bell keys come first though, with the BA? And presumably what made the action balanced was the new pinky tangle (might be wrong about that)
 
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I THINK the term "Balanced Action" had to do with the different direction of little finger action, which theoretically makes the LH little finger work the same as all the other LH fingers. But the question remains, WHY would they have introduced the offset stacks rather soon after the Balanced Action model? And let's note that most companies with right-hand bell keys retained the action with linkages rather late. That's why I believe it was mechanical considerations that moved from Balanced Action (not offset stacks) to "Super Balanced Action" (Offset stacks, and additional minor redesigns).

But I should make it clear that this is my BELIEF, and I'd want to do some careful study of the before-offset and after-offset layouts, especially around the 1 and 1 mechanism, the G# closer, etc., before claiming that it is DEFINITELY what happened.
 
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But the question remains, WHY would they have introduced the offset stacks rather soon after the Balanced Action model?
I see what you mean, the BA introduced advantages with the RH bell keys, but that also brought new issues along with the benefits, so the Super was to cure the issue introduced by the RH keys. definitely possible. And instead of admitting it was to cure something they spun it into ergonomics.
 
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I often don't notice it. I'll pick up a horn and play it and only notice it's got inline hole when I look down the body.
Compare that with the many other things I notice - such as the profile on the pearls, the position of the bell key spatulas, the angle of the side key touches, the tension on the springs and the height of the action, the approach angle of the crook, the balance of the horn on the sling...and so on.
 
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But the question remains, WHY would they have introduced the offset stacks rather soon after the Balanced Action model? And let's note that most companies with right-hand bell keys retained the action with linkages rather late.
The exception was Julius Keilwerth who introduced right hand bell keys without linkages in the Toneking and almost 30 years later came with the offset tone holes in the Peter Ponzol. Of course this is not completely comparable due to the wide bow construction of the Keilwerth saxophone.
 
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I see what you mean, the BA introduced advantages with the RH bell keys, but that also brought new issues along with the benefits, so the Super was to cure the issue introduced by the RH keys. definitely possible. And instead of admitting it was to cure something they spun it into ergonomics.
I get the advantages of losing the left hand pinky rod linkages to RH bell keys, and instead putting the rods down the middle to the RH bell keys, but what was wrong with inline tone holes and LH bell keys?

I have a LH LaFleur tenor and the left hand pinky table is so easy to use compared to a modern right hand bell keyed BA style arrangement. Seems so obvious to have your left hand linked to left handed keys?...

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There are many of us who don't think anything WAS wrong with the old layout (Conn, Martin, Buescher up to the 400, and King up to about halfway through the Super 20 run).

The THEORY (and the French are great ones for doing things according to theory) is that because all your other LH fingers close the keys by clamping in (like squeezing a ball), the little finger should do the same. Unfortunately designing the LH keywork according to this theory leads to some issues.

For one thing, Sax assigned to the LH little finger some of the heaviest work on the horn. We can argue that it should be a stronger more flexible finger that does those bell keys (like, say, the right thumb), but that decision's made. In the original Sax design, that was carried over till the Selmer Balanced Action, the LH little finger actually PUSHES on the keys, so it's being worked in a very strong direction, along its axis. Furthermore, to go from one key to the next requires only that the finger be pivoted about its big knuckle.

Now if we look at the Selmer-style LH little finger keys, we see that their angle to the little finger is very different. Where the old style has the key surfaces nearly perpendicular to the axis of the finger, the Selmer style has the key surfaces nearly parallel to the finger's axis. in THEORY, then, the action of the finger in closing the key will be similar to the action of all the other fingers. However, in REALITY there are a few issues.

1) Because the C# key is closer to the knuckle than the B key, and the key surfaces are nearly parallel to the finger, your little finger has to get longer to play the B and shorter to play the C#. Now if you've got great big long fingers, you simply change the curvature of the finger, but if you don't, you end up having to wiggle your whole hand around to go between these two keys. And it's basically impossible for someone with short fingers to avoid opening the C# key while playing B, which is why all the Selmers have that extra "helper arm" to force the C# closed when B is played. Another thing to get out of adjustment.

2) Beyond this, Selmer retained the layout where the Bb is below the B/C# keys (as did several other makers that didn't do the left to right bell key swap). So, to go from C# or B to Bb, you have to SLIDE the little finger OUTWARD, in its very WEAKEST direction, while simultaneously applying a CLAMPing action with it. Basically you're asking a very weak muscle to overcome the friction being applied by a very strong muscle. Again, to actually make these movements, people end up having to engage the more powerful muscles of hte wrist and forearm, and their hands squirrel all over the place. Wih the superior Conn and late-Buescher layout of C#, B, Bb all in a line, moving from one to another is a matter of pivoting the finger about its big knuckle, which is using stronger muscles, and doesn't require you to hang that little finger way out there separated from the rest of its hand where it's weakest.

3) So now that they designed a layout that's difficult to actuate, they needed to bring down the key forces; so they lengthened the arms at the key touches. Which seems good, but when you increase mechanical advantage you increase travel too, so now instead of the short stiff keys of the Conn Buescher Martin and King layouts, you have long squishy keys with enormous travel.

4) And then to make matters worse, with all that key travel, they decide they need to make it easier to get back and forth from the low Bb, so they invent that horrible tilting low Bb that always falls away from your finger just when you need it to be stiff and positive in action. Plus it's another linkage, and with really short lever arms, so any compression of the padding material means the thing just sinks and sinks and sinks and "gee, have I closed the damn key YET????" is the reaction.

Honestly, the Selmer Balanced Action and later horns are wonderful instruments with great tone and excellent build quality, but the very worst aspect of the design is the Mark 6 and later little finger LH table. Then the Mark 7 took it even further by making all the keys 50% oversize! I knew one tenor player who played professionally at a very high level on a Mark 7; he was a great big bruiser of a guy with hands like a bunch of bananas; and even so, he had the tilting low Bb disabled and the key soldered in a fixed position rather than deal with that uncertain squishy action. The BA horns are in my opinion the best of the bunch BECAUSE they didn't have that horrible tilting linked low Bb.

But if you want to blow a Selmerite's mind, have them play a Super/Radio Improved/New Large Bore. All the great key action of a BA or M6 is there, AND the little finger action is light, positive, with short key travel. Just like a fine musical instrument, not like the shift linkage of a poorly maintained VW Microbus with all the bushings fallen out of the linkage.
 
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Solution
A thorough analysis of the movements of the left pinky. It makes it plausible that off set tone holes are a stopgap solution.
I have to think abouth this before I move from plausible to a more definite ruling.

My relative short pinky doesn't agree with the Mark 6 pinky table and I hae another reason to stick to my 6M.
 
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