Beginner impro How do I find the chords for a 12 bar blues?

[cappers]

I would be grateful for some advice on determining the chords in a tune when they aren't given.

I am trying to solo a 12 bar blues over Green Onions (arranged by Terry Pack?). The key for tenor is noted as Dmaj and the music sheet states "Solos in Gminor blues"

I was told this was a mistake and solos should be in Aminor not Gminor. It was suggested I use Amin, with a couple of Dmin and Emin, all blues scales.

Amin blue ACDEbEG
Dmin blue DFGAbAC
Emin blue EGABbBD

The general format for a 12-BB is
I / I / I / I /
IV / IV/ I / I /
V7/ V7/ I / I /

So that suggests to me
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/D-/A-/A-/
E-/E-/A-/A-/

But looking at the the backing track I can't determine from the notes which chord is which. To me it looks more like 1/1/1/1, 4/1/1/1, 5/4/1/1?

It looks like
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/A-/A-/A-/
E-/D-/A-/A-/

Am I yet again totally confused and barking up the wrong tree? I understand how chords are constructed but find it difficult to determine what chord is played from the notes given.

Apologies for a long post; I hope I have made myself clear.

 

[LostCircuits]

Yeah, Stormy Monday has a very cool chord progression. That part in bars 5-8 is a climbing sequence.
Two beats each chord: I7 IIm7 IIIm7 bIII7. And on the last two beats of bar 3 the chord moves up a half step to bII7.
Finally, bars 9 & 10 are (usually) IIm7 IVm7 (or bVI7). With a turnaround in bars 11 & 12.

I'm not sure it is always be done that way, but it's a unique-sounding slow blues progression.

I've heard at least a dozen variations of the chord progression, especially in the 5-8 bars and the thing I noticed is that a lot of them are interchangeable, even within a single take of the song. Which goes back to the universal blues mantra, that anything goes that fits and sounds good.

And that is, really, the crux of Stormy Monday, you can play a lot of licks and they sound like "Starbucks, 3 weeks dead and then warmed over". Or you listen to the song and find the pattern(s) that bring out its beauty. I've seen a lot of folks throw the towel, particularly the 1-4-5 "locked-ins".

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Chords to get beginning guitar students, to play Stormy, while you conjure up some solos. Getting paid to practice?
Takes time for developing the Barre, first finger/thumb, so this gets them Rockin quickly.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Chords to get beginning guitar students, to play Stormy, while you conjure up some solos. Getting paid to practice?
Takes time for developing the Barre, first finger/thumb, so this gets them Rockin quickly.


View attachment 30177

This is as good as hieroglyphics to me. Notation?

 

[Vlad]

Never mind about all that @cappers here's one to try out ( as you like a bit of 'bobbing about' ) 😀

View: https://youtu.be/TyANRiqzfio?si=q4k3AI5gJ0DMKjuf

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Hope this helps for now.
So, you are not responsible for the cutting of trees, only cane? 🙄

 

[Colin the Bear]

Hope this helps for now.
So, you are not responsible for the cutting of trees, only cane? 🙄

View attachment 30180

Will this work on banjo?

Is IIm7 same as ii7?

 

[JSL]

I've heard at least a dozen variations of the chord progression, especially in the 5-8 bars and the thing I noticed is that a lot of them are interchangeable, even within a single take of the song. Which goes back to the universal blues mantra, that anything goes that fits and sounds good.

So true. And the fact is, when soloing you don't have to 'stick like glue' to each & every chord, as long as you play something that fits. I've always found that, when playing a line, the IIm7 and V7 chords are interchangeable. IOW, you can play a V7 lick over the IIm7 chord and vice versa. Because they share a lot of the same chord tones. If playing the actual chord on a keyboard or guitar, yeah, those two chords do have a different sound.

Is IIm7 same as ii7?

Yes. I've adopted the "Pete Thomas" method of keeping all Roman numerals in caps for chords, with the modifier added. 'm', or 'min' for minor. But lower case for minor also works.

 

[LostCircuits]

I find lower case extremely helpful because you spot it immediately without getting caught in all the suffixes / extensions.
A7 vs. a7 is just easier (for me) to read than A major 7 vs A min 7.

 

[Pete Thomas]

A7 vs. a7 is just easier (for me) to read than A major 7 vs A min 7.

That's intersting because of never seen lower case for chord symbols (unless Roman numerals). If you come to rely on it I would find some confusion between C from a c when written by hand.

But I've also rarely seen major written out in full, normally maj 7vs m7 is fine for distinguishing.

 

[cappers]

Is the ∆ often used for major e.g. C∆, C-∆ ?
Ditto Cø for Cm7b5, C˚7 for Cdim7 ?

Has there been any attempt at 'standardisation' of chord symbols?

Thank you.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Is the ∆ often used for major e.g. C∆, C-∆ ?

It's used, I don't particularly like it. Again when handwritten (badly in a rush as is often the case) the ∆ can look like O

Has there been any attempt at 'standardisation' of chord symbols?

Probably. But not with any global success.

 

[JSL]

Is the ∆ often used for major e.g. C∆, C-∆ ?
Ditto Cø for Cm7b5, C˚7 for Cdim7 ?

Has there been any attempt at 'standardisation' of chord symbols?

Thank you.

To some extent, it's a matter of preference. I don't like the triangle symbol for major. As Pete mentioned, 'maj' vs 'm' for major vs minor works just fine. And I do prefer m7b5 to the half-diminished symbol. When the 7 follows maj or m, it indicates a 7th chord. When 7 follows the chord symbol only, it designates a dominant chord. If you want to be absolutely certain, you might use 'min' for minor, but I prefer to keep it short (m). Also -7 for minor 7 is sometimes used.

As to capitalization for Roman numerals, I think the best reason to use it for all the chords is because in a chord symbol the root chord tone is always capitalized, maj or min. Dmin7 (not dmin7). Hence IIm7, if it's the '2 chord'. Pete pointed this out some time ago, and it made sense to me. But there doesn't seem to be any across-the-board standardization on chord symbols.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But there doesn't seem to be any across-the-board standardization on chord symbols.

One confusion I found when teaching students who had learned classical harmony was that in classical harmony ii7 meant what I called IIm7. ie the diatonic version of chord II was assumed, whereas we jazzers and rockers always had to have the m or min - otherwise it was a major chord with a 7th (secondary dominant) - what in classical was called a V7 of V.

Sorry cappers, if you are still with us, this has gone beyond beginner harmony.

 

[LostCircuits]

That's intersting because of never seen lower case for chord symbols (unless Roman numerals). If you come to rely on it I would find some confusion between C from a c when written by hand.

But I've also rarely seen major written out in full, normally maj 7vs m7 is fine for distinguishing.

That's just the way it was taught when I was in high school. And you know, first cut is the deepest.

Later, when I learned guitar, most of the songbooks followed the same naming convention and that's really the only sight reading I've ever accomplished.

It doesn't bother me either way, as long as it's spelled out correctly. And c vs C, that's how some of my favorite blues licks might have originated 😛

 

[Colin the Bear]

On BiaB it's C7 Cm7 Cj Cd. More of a shortcut than a convention. The annoying one is Cminmaj7. They may have updated it my version is 2012.
How time flies.

I do prefer the Roman numerals and also find the geometric shapes quite clear.

Sloppy handwriting is unclear whatever system is used. Having said that, Doctor Jazz shouldn't be legible.

 

[Pete Thomas]

On BiaB it's C7 Cm7 Cj Cd.

So I managed a long professional career with having no idea what it means if I saw Cj or Cd

 

[Colin the Bear]

So I managed a long professional career with having no idea what it means if I saw Cj or Cd

Maj7 and diminished.

 

[cappers]

Sorry cappers, if you are still with us, this has gone beyond beginner harmony.

No please carry on, my understanding is developing.

After more study of chords and progressions on TTS and advice on here I felt a bit swamped. Today something clicked! The whole Roman numeral system made sense, 251s became clear as did 1111 4411 5411 etc. All relative to the tonic key.

To practice 251s I played the root of each chord, then 1,3 to 1,3,5 to 1,3,5,7, for each e.g. Dm7 to G to Cmaj7: D DF DFA DFAC G GB GBD GBD(F#) Cmaj7 C CE CEG CEGB.

I think - I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong -😉re 'guide tones', in the above I could play an F in II across to V then a G in V to resolve to Cmaj7?

I'll duck now

 

[skeller047]

The only “standard” for chord symbols I’ve ever seen is Clinton Roemer’s superb book for music copyists (using pen and ink). Since it is now virtually irrelevant due to the availability of excellent software, it has fallen by the wayside.

The best software today lets you choose how to display them. I have used the 3 major programs (Sibelius, Dorico and Musescore), I could never get on with Finale. Dorico seems the best at specifying defaults.

Having played for several years in casino showroom orchestras, with a new act every week, the variety of chord symbol styles was mind boggling at times. But you could always tell when copyists had studied Roemer’s book. And that usually meant the show would be easier to play.

 

[JSL]

On BiaB it's C7 Cm7 Cj Cd. More of a shortcut than a convention. The annoying one is Cminmaj7.

Cj and Cd are not what I'd prefer, at all. Instead, I'd use Cmaj7 and Cdim7 (if they were 7th chords. Leave the '7' off for triads). I don't mind Cminmaj7, but I'd notate it Cmin/maj7. Maybe there's a better way, but that symbol merely indicates a minor chord with a maj7th.

re 'guide tones', in the above I could play an F in II across to V then a G in V to resolve to Cmaj7?

Guide tones are used to make a smooth transition from one chord to the next, usually by 1/2 step or whole step. There are dozens of examples, but going back to the blues, you'll find that you can move by 1/2 step through the I, IV, V chords from the 3rd to 7th of each chord. Going through the 12 bar changes in the key of C:

Chord progression (with a 'quick 4' in bar 2):
/ C7 / F7 / C7 / C7 /
/ F7 / F7 / C7 / C7 /
/ G7 / F7 / C7 / C7 /

Voice leading with guide tones, 3rds & 7ths, the notes (chord tones, not chords), starting on the 3rd of C7 would be:
/ E / Eb / E / E /
/ Eb / Eb / E / E /
/ F / Eb / E / E /

Again, those are notes, highlighting chord tones, the 3rd of C7, and 7th of G7 & F7. Note how the movement between chords is a 1/2 step and a whole step from G7 to F7 (F to Eb). This is just to illustrate the guide tones where the chords change. You could obviously play other notes over the duration of each chord.

Hope that helps rather than confuses the issue.