Beginner impro How do I find the chords for a 12 bar blues?

[cappers]

I would be grateful for some advice on determining the chords in a tune when they aren't given.

I am trying to solo a 12 bar blues over Green Onions (arranged by Terry Pack?). The key for tenor is noted as Dmaj and the music sheet states "Solos in Gminor blues"

I was told this was a mistake and solos should be in Aminor not Gminor. It was suggested I use Amin, with a couple of Dmin and Emin, all blues scales.

Amin blue ACDEbEG
Dmin blue DFGAbAC
Emin blue EGABbBD

The general format for a 12-BB is
I / I / I / I /
IV / IV/ I / I /
V7/ V7/ I / I /

So that suggests to me
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/D-/A-/A-/
E-/E-/A-/A-/

But looking at the the backing track I can't determine from the notes which chord is which. To me it looks more like 1/1/1/1, 4/1/1/1, 5/4/1/1?

It looks like
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/A-/A-/A-/
E-/D-/A-/A-/

Am I yet again totally confused and barking up the wrong tree? I understand how chords are constructed but find it difficult to determine what chord is played from the notes given.

Apologies for a long post; I hope I have made myself clear.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Strangely, I can transpose dots at sight well for Eb to concert, ok for Bb to concert but mental block for transposing chord symbols 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[JSL]

It's quite simple to read a tone up but I find that it's too complicated to think in intervals on Eb instruments. I find it much simpler to just know the concert pitch of each fingering.

I'm not talking about reading music in concert key and transposing the notes on the spot. That's a different skill that you would need if you are reading sheet music in concert key. I'm just talking about playing in a specific key when playing by ear or improvising.

For alto, I just think of the relative minor key of the concert key, and there's my key. Concert Bb? No problem. G.

Sure, that works fine. It's the same thing as knowing the '6th' in any given key. Which is the relative minor.

 

[skeller047]

Looking again at the sheet music…. I’ll bet the person who got the chart had a version in concert key, which even though it’s a G blues, was written without a key signature. The transposition function is “smart” and changes the key of C (no key sig) to D (2 sharps).

The G blues part is text, so was not transposed.

Regardless, @cappers, this is good stuff to learn. Those of us who are working musicians would not have made the mistake you did, by playing in tenor key of G. We would have just looked at the page, said to ourselves, “this chart sux”, and played the music. Because how many charts have we seen that suck worse than this one? I lost count 50-odd years ago.

Knowing music is not the same as being able to read a part. The thing that comes with experience is being able to infer the structure from the written part. Or just hear it and ignore the page. You are getting experience! The fact you’ve been playing less than a year is simply fabulous.

 

[cappers]

I assume you meant the transposer rather than the player

I mean the operator of the computer, ie the arranger/transposer. ..........

I know, just kidding 😉

Once again thanks to all for help in deciphering this piece of music.

One final question ....what is a piece of music notation called, such as the tenor parts above? A script, a score, a piece, a part, a composition, a lead sheet ?
Thanks.

 

[Pete Thomas]

what is a piece of music notation called, such as the tenor parts above?

A part. There may be other terms but I can't think of any right now. A lead sheet i(e.g. what you see in a Real Book) is usually the main melody and chord symbols (possibly with some background bits as cues).

A score is all the individual parts shown together. Either transposed or non-transposed.

 

[Colin the Bear]

No letters are needed when playing without music. That's another unnecessary mental step cluttering up the process between ears and fingers.

 

[cappers]

No letters are needed when playing without music. That's another unnecessary mental step cluttering up the process between ears and fingers.

I agree. Unfortunately I am not yet at the stage where I can play a known tune by ear without written music to guide me. I can kind of improvise by ear but not a whole song.
With repetition many parts are becoming very familiar to play but I can't seem to remember more than a few bars! Hopefully with practice and time.....

 

[Colin the Bear]

The more tunes you learn, the easier it becomes to learn new tunes, for the most part that is. Some remain elusive and won't stick.
Lyrics can help if it's a song.
Any wanderings can be called variations.
Hearing yourself play an off melody note can be disguised by getting off it quickly and adding a decoration or a run. Keep a straight face.

We all get in to trouble. The fun part is finding your way out and keeping it musical.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Keep a straight face.

Better still, give the bass player a dirty look.

A good grasp of music theory is also useful when memorising tunes.

 

[Vlad]

As mentioned, the words are most important when playing songs / tunes by ear.
Thanks to my mum playing her records when I was a kid, my head is full of Frank Sinatra, Nelson Riddle, Cole Porter etc etc !

 

[Pete Effamy]

As mentioned, the words are most important when playing songs / tunes by ear.

Again, not for everyone. The pitches outweigh the lyrics for me.
There are too many big statements like:

- dancing is the key to great rhythm;
- lyrics will help you remember this or that.

Not for all. Yes they can and do, but it’s not how we all go about music making.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Words are hardly useful, if you do not speak that language, but the tonality and dynamics used, can be.

 

[Vlad]

Words are hardly useful, if you do not speak that language, but the tonality and dynamics used, can be.

I used to listen to a lot of Wagner as an early teenager, I can't speak German but I remember a whole load of the 'tunes' using the words as reference even if I don't get the full meaning. I know the basic 'storylines' of the operas of course.
I guess its a YMMV thing, but the words to a song are an important way to remember / suss out how a piece goes, for me and IMHO, no 'big statement' intended.. Just an ex Punk so whaddo I know eh ! 😀

 

[Pete Effamy]

I used to listen to a lot of Wagner as an early teenager, I can't speak German but I remember a whole load of the 'tunes' using the words as reference even if I don't get the full meaning. I know the basic 'storylines' of the operas of course.
I guess its a YMMV thing, but the words to a song are an important way to remember / suss out how a piece goes, for me and IMHO, no 'big statement' intended.. Just an ex Punk so whaddo I know eh ! 😀

I would think that a lot of brain space is being taken up by thinking of lyrics, whereas what the rest of the band are doing in relation to you is more important.

But I argue against it from a point of not doing it, and, might add that I just don’t “hear” lyrics of a song and have little idea of lyrics of songs that I’ve heard for many years. I do know in detail about what the other instruments are doing though.

All sorts…

 

[Pete Effamy]

Unfortunately I am not yet at the stage where I can play a known tune by ear without tune by ear without written music to guide me. I can kind of improvise by ear but not a whole song.

These abilities are one and the same - playing a melody composed by someone else and playing something you are in the process of composing. They are both constructed from notes / intervals

 

[cappers]

@Pete Effamy. For you as a Pro it must all be second nature but for myself it is a work in progress (hopefully forwards).

I can make something up to a backing track, but currently for playing an actual tune as written I need the dots. I can hear notes and intervals but don't yet have enough experience and familiarity to play a tune just by ear. At least not the swing jazz I'm playing; I'm still at a Ba Ba Black Sheep, London Bridge, When the Saints, level.

Through repetition I am beginning to learn some parts of the songs in the bands' repertoire and can play those bits without the dots but not all of it. I am sure with more practice it will become easier.

 

[Pete Effamy]

@Pete Effamy. For you as a Pro it must all be second nature but for myself it is a work in progress (hopefully forwards).

I can make something up to a backing track, but currently for playing an actual tune as written I need the dots. I can hear notes and intervals but don't yet have enough experience and familiarity to play a tune just by ear. At least not the swing jazz I'm playing; I'm still at a Ba Ba Black Sheep, London Bridge, When the Saints, level.

Through repetition I am beginning to learn some parts of the songs in the bands' repertoire and can play those bits without the dots but not all of it. I am sure with more practice it will become easier.

I wasn’t born “a pro”.

 

[cappers]

I would like to add that this lengthy thread resulting from my original question has been very helpful and inspired me.

The past couple of day I've listened to different 12BB tunes, videos and TTS and 'get it'.
That prompted me to look more closely at II-V-I progressions, writing chords in different keys and playing them to get a feel for them. Last night something clicked and Im beginning to understood the concepts. Very basic but still a step forward for me. At least when someone shouts 'it's a 251 in G' I'll have more of a clue.

Thank you.

 

[cappers]

I wasn’t born “a pro”.

Was anyone? Of course I meant that your years of practice and experience makes it second nature.
I hope that in the time I have left on the lump of rock, my enthusiasm, dedication and sheer ruddy mindedness will enable me to play the sax somewhat competently.

 

[JSL]

Unfortunately I am not yet at the stage where I can play a known tune by ear without written music to guide me. I can kind of improvise by ear but not a whole song.

You've only been playing for a year, so that's not a surprise. But you seem to be well ahead of the curve (a year is not at all long when it comes to learning a musical instrument). Eventually, you may discovery that the best way to learn a tune is by ear. And until you get away from the written part, you won't likely have it memorized. At least that's how it works for me. With that in mind this will help:

A good grasp of music theory is also useful when memorising tunes.

+1. For example, if you know the key center and the chords, that will put some limitations on the notes that are like to be used for a given melody or musical phrase. Part of having a grasp on music theory is to be able to hear and recognize what's going on; the chord progression, etc.