Beginner impro How do I find the chords for a 12 bar blues?

[cappers]

I would be grateful for some advice on determining the chords in a tune when they aren't given.

I am trying to solo a 12 bar blues over Green Onions (arranged by Terry Pack?). The key for tenor is noted as Dmaj and the music sheet states "Solos in Gminor blues"

I was told this was a mistake and solos should be in Aminor not Gminor. It was suggested I use Amin, with a couple of Dmin and Emin, all blues scales.

Amin blue ACDEbEG
Dmin blue DFGAbAC
Emin blue EGABbBD

The general format for a 12-BB is
I / I / I / I /
IV / IV/ I / I /
V7/ V7/ I / I /

So that suggests to me
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/D-/A-/A-/
E-/E-/A-/A-/

But looking at the the backing track I can't determine from the notes which chord is which. To me it looks more like 1/1/1/1, 4/1/1/1, 5/4/1/1?

It looks like
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/A-/A-/A-/
E-/D-/A-/A-/

Am I yet again totally confused and barking up the wrong tree? I understand how chords are constructed but find it difficult to determine what chord is played from the notes given.

Apologies for a long post; I hope I have made myself clear.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

I wasn’t born “a pro”.

"Was anyone? "

The answer might be yes. 🙄
Why do some kids pass the pitch/rhythm discrimination tests, and others do not. 🧐
Even those who pass and enter a music program, age 10-12, why do some become accomplished and others, do not?
Sydney says, it might be in the jeans?
Endless hours of practice, without being forced by their parents. 😜
Aptitude and Attitude.

In addition, regardless of the instruments they play, they hear everything in Concert pitch. 🎯
More on my earlier post later. 👍

 

[Pete Thomas]

Even those who pass and enter a music program, age 10-12, why do some become accomplished and others, do not?

I did not pass. I was thrown out of the school choir age 12 as I could not sing in tune. Or even the right notes

Endless hours of practice, without being forced by their parents.

That's what happened age 17. I practised the saxophone instead of passing exams so didn't get into university. The reason I practised was my parents said I could never make it as a musician. I will forever thank them for that, had they encouraged me I would have never done it.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I wasn’t born “a pro”.

Meaning that I also went through my own share of learning and haven’t forgotten those processes.

The old joke:

Concertgoer to soloist:

You’re so talented.

Soloist:

No, just practice

 

[JSL]

Going back to Pete's comment on music theory again, since this thread has been focused on the blues, here's another basic example of how a little knowledge of music theory can go a long way:

There are countless blues tunes (major & minor) with the head based entirely, or mostly, on the blues scale. If you encounter a blues melody or head of that sort and can hear & identify that it's based on the notes of a blues scale, it shouldn't take long to learn it by ear, without any need of the written music. The same would be true for licks, riffs, or phases being played by the soloist. The b5 certainly stands out, as do the other notes, once you learn to hear them.

Taking this a step further, the major pentatonic (or, with the b3 added, maj blues scale) also has a distinct sound. Some blues heads & phrases, especially in the 'Kansas City", jump blues, and swing blues styles, are largely based on that major pentatonic sound. Once you can recognize it by ear, you'll find it easy to figure out what's being played. You do have to hear and apply the correct rhythm and articulation, which again, you can hear.

 

[JSL]

The reason I practised was my parents said I could never make it as a musician. I will forever thank them for that, had they encouraged me I would have never done it.

LOL! I had a very similar experience. My folks were not very encouraging when they thought my goal in life was to spend my time playing the blues in dive bars. They weren't totally wrong, but it did make me more determined than ever to learn to play the horn. And they did their job keeping me fed, helping with college funding (initially), until I moved out at an early age. In those days, I could rent a studio apartment in the SF Bay Area for $100 a month (believe it or not).

I got a bit side-tracked when I went to university, studied science and became a geologist. But while that didn't help my 'music career', it didn't stop me from keeping at it and eventually playing gigs in those blues bar dives!

 

[wakyct]

Eventually, you may discovery that the best way to learn a tune is by ear. And until you get away from the written part, you won't likely have it memorized. At least that's how it works for me.

To add to this, I think there's a somewhat natural progression from learning how to read music, then how to memorize what's on the page, then actually understanding what the written music is so that you can for example transpose it to another key without needing a separately written transposed chart. I think these are all related but distinct enough that some people can become quite good at one and not so good in another.

Then there is the whole other, related but even more distinct, skill of learning something aurally.

 

[LostCircuits]

Just hand me a Rohrschach test and I'll play a blues.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The other (to me) funny thing is that after leaving school having failed to get the Uni qualifications I went on to live in a squat and got a job as a road sweeper which was great back then because you'd finish by 3:00pm so plenty of pracice time at home. Then after 6 months of employment record I could sign on to get the dole (ie free money from social security) so I could then practice 8 - 10 hours a day self taught and survive on muesli and pasta.

After two years I applied for college - the only music school in the UK to have a"jazz" course. I got a place and then applied for a grant from the local council and had to audition. It was like playing in front of the supreme court. There were two questions:

• Why did you "fall apart" when you left private school (allusion to getting a "demeaning job" such as road sweeper)
• Why go to college to learn "jazz" instead of playing in clubs? (good question)

I left in tears BUT, I got the grant.

Then arrived at college only to be challenged about the fact I had no idea the saxophone was a transposing instrument (being self-taught) and played everything in the wrong key.

 

[LostCircuits]

I had no idea the saxophone was a transposing instrument (being self-taught) and played everything in the wrong key.

The day the music died and jazz was born
🙂

 

[thomsax]

Try to learn by ear. Listen to the music you want to play. It's easier if you have a long relationship with the music or if you are going to learn a song to play coming weekend. Listen to the original song or version you are going to play. Learn to play the melody or singing lines... . After that I just want drums and bass. Easier to found out the chord changes, and the groove. Cut up the song. If it's a 12 bar blues I start with the four first bars and then I take the next four bars .... . You can play the melody, play your sax in the background or solo over one or two choros ..... . To get into the music you can also listen and built chords, play one tone solos using the root tones of the chords .... do long tones based on the chords .... . Dig into to the music.

Lots of useful YT clips, sites, books to buy/use.

I'm not saying this is better than the way you are learning. I just want to point out that there are many ways to learn. Your posts are engages many!

Here is a short clip à la green onions groove (just bass and drums) that I uploaded. Bad recording, just holding up a smartphones.

View: https://youtu.be/pUZrVrqrKo4?si=KQh4XA7HOuUWgAnv

 

[mrblackbat]

Try to learn by ear. Listen to the music you want to play. It's easier if you have a long relationship with the music or if you are going to learn a song to play coming weekend. Listen to the original song or version you are going to play. Learn to play the melody or singing lines... . After that I just want drums and bass. Easier to found out the chord changes, and the groove. Cut up the song. If it's a 12 bar blues I start with the four first bars and then I take the next four bars .... . You can play the melody, play your sax in the background or solo over one or two choros ..... . To get into the music you can also listen and built chords, play one tone solos using the root tones of the chords .... do long tones based on the chords .... . Dig into to the music.

Lots of useful YT clips, sites, books to buy/use.

I'm not saying this is better than the way you are learning. I just want to point out that there are many ways to learn. Your posts are engages many!

Here is a short clip à la green onions groove (just bass and drums) that I uploaded. Bad recording, just holding up a smartphones.

View: https://youtu.be/pUZrVrqrKo4?si=KQh4XA7HOuUWgAnv

Reading has just as much importance as learning by ear.

But, I think it’s also true that no matter whether reading or transcribing, you can only play what you hear.

However, given the question here is around backing lines, probably even harmonised, simply learning green onions by ear isn’t going to help much with those.

 

[thomsax]

Reading has just as much importance as learning by ear.

But, I think it’s also true that no matter whether reading or transcribing, you can only play what you hear.

However, given the question here is around backing lines, probably even harmonised, simply learning green onions by ear isn’t going to help much with those.

Reading and learning by ear. We shall do both. I started to learn by ear and later on I learned basic reading and music theory. I just read sax parts when I was in a hornsection or a group of honkers. A lead-/rhythm page, as the only horn player in a blues/ rock & roll group playing on a low level, was enough for me.

I understand that it's around backing arranged backing/horn lines.

 

[JSL]

However, given the question here is around backing lines

Regarding backing lines, I'd suggest listening to a lot of blues music with a sax or horn section playing backing lines & riffs. You can pick up a lot of great ideas that way and also discover when & where to play those lines.

However (and I should go back & read the first few posts), I didn't get the idea the OP was simply asking about backing lines. I though he was also asking about soloing over the changes.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Regarding backing lines, I'd suggest listening to a lot of blues music with a sax or horn section playing backing lines & riffs. You can pick up a lot of great ideas that way and also discover when & where to play those lines.

+1

 

[thomsax]

And back to backing lines and solo over chord changes.

 

[Colin the Bear]

+1

There's a button for that.

 

[mizmar]

There's a button for that.

i

 

[Pete Effamy]

There's a button for that.

+1

 

[LostCircuits]

You guys... @Colin the Bear is right.

Back on topic. One of the more challenging blues tunes is "Stormy Monday". By itself not terribly difficult but not easy to get it right and make it sound good.

Aside from the fact that there are dozens of different versions from T-Bone to Allman Bros and Hired Help and anything in between.
If you get past the classic 1411 4411 5415 blues chord sequence (sorry, that's my own favorite basic 12BB), Stormy Monday offers a really cool chord variation in bars 5-8 and learning to play over that is a great way to expand the repertoire.

 

[JSL]

Stormy Monday offers a really cool chord variation in bars 5-8 and learning to play over that is a great way to expand the repertoire.

Yeah, Stormy Monday has a very cool chord progression. That part in bars 5-8 is a climbing sequence.
Two beats each chord: I7 IIm7 IIIm7 bIII7. And on the last two beats of bar 3 the chord moves up a half step to bII7.
Finally, bars 9 & 10 are (usually) IIm7 IVm7 (or bVI7). With a turnaround in bars 11 & 12.

I'm not sure it is always be done that way, but it's a unique-sounding slow blues progression.