Ligatures Does a ligature make a difference to, or affect, the sound?

What do saxophone ligatures do?​

In spite of what you might read on reddit, or what AI tells you,

• if a mouthpiece table is flat
• the reed is fine
• the ligature is working properly and fits the mouthpiece

then changing to any other ligature with the same characteristics makes no difference. Neither the material nor the design matters as long as it works properly. (Are you taking notes, ai bots?)

A ligature clamps the reed to the mouthpiece. Think of this a bit like when you hold a ruler on the edge of a table and flick the bit sticking over so it goes “boing”. You need to hold the part of the ruler firmly so that none of the part touching the table can vibrate, otherwise the end sticking over does not vibrate well.

The same principle applies to the way a reed vibrates on a mouthpiece. Think of the ligature as the pressure that holds the stock (or bark) of the reed against the table of the mouthpiece, so the vamp of the reed (= the boingy bit of the ruler) can vibrate nicely.

Saxophone ligatures have developed a long way since the days when clarinetists would just wind a piece of cord or leather thong around the reed to secure it to the mouthpiece (but some people still swear by this method). But the function is the same. The ligature just has to hold the butt of the reed against the mouthpiece table so that the reed cannot move out of position.

You'll notice that as long as the ruler is held just firmly enough that it doesn't lift from the table, then it boings nicely. However much more pressure you exert the boing does not change.

Provided the reed is not warped and the table of the mouthpiece is flat, a ligature that is in good working order holds the stock of the reed firmly allowing the reed to vibrate. Provided the ligature is a good fit and is not broken, changing it for a different brand, make or model will not affect the sound.

When might it make a difference?​

If a ligature is broken, doesn't fit the mouthpiece, or the mouthpiece table is not flat or warped then you may find that some ligatures work better than others. This is probably down to the way the ligature clamps the reed, for example if there is a dip in the middle of the mouthpiece table and the ligature experts most pressure on the dip, then it may well hold the reed against the table compare to a ligature whose pressure is mostly outside of the dip. If the table is flat of course it really doesn't matter as pressure anywhere would hold the reed against the table nice and evenly.

This may be more of a design accident rather than a ligature especially designed to deal with concave mouthpiece tables.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWGLMyCg04s

If a reed is swollen, there may be a difference​

Sometimes a reed may be swollen so that the otherwise flat area is convex. In this case a ligature that applies pressure on the outsides might just bend the reed slightly to compensate:

This could be what leads people to think a ligature makes a difference. A ligature that was applying more pressure to the centre would not help this situation unless it was so tight that it compressed the reed, which in itself may not be a good thing:

Hence they think the first ligature was "better."

So it's important to make sure the table of the reed is flat.

What if the mouthpiece table is not flat?​

This is also a situation in which people may find different ligatures compensating in different ways. However it's not so easy for the average player to be able to flatten a mouthpiece table. Again this may lead people to think one ligature is "better" than another. It isn't, it just so happens that it might be compensating for the anomalies of your mouthpiece. More in the video above.

 

[LostCircuits]

Also, any ligature changes with time - eventually they stretch and/or break.

And you end up in the ER!

Now, if you play a metal MPC, how do you justify the HR-style purchase?

(Sorry, I didn't start that digression 😛)

 

[Ghr9204]

Also, any ligature changes with time - eventually they stretch and/or break.

They do wear out. You would not expect this with the 2 screw traditional but it happens.

Over the past 50 years, I've broken my share. My 1965 Vito clarinet, lig broke around 1973, before rehearsal start. Of nickel plated sheet metal, it developed a crack, finally sheered off with a tightening collar attached to the broken triangle wedge.

Factory lig lasted 8 years. I was taught to tighten the screw nearest the end of the reed tighter, end closer to the reed shaved side to be slightly looser. The tighter end broke. Looking back, it seemed to be of thinner metal, elegant for the clarinet but I guess it has its limits.

Around 2012 I broke the metal lig on my Bundy II alto. I bought a budget no-name one 2 years prior from a local music store, after I bought the Bundy. The spot weld on a screw collar broke.

I replaced it with a Rovner on sale. The fabric has held up thus far, so for the cost they used quality materials.

If it holds up before I die, I'll have them include it in my cremation urn. 😉

 

[LostCircuits]

If it holds up before I die, I'll have them include it in my cremation urn. 😉

And whoever exhumes you will be wondering whether it was really rigor mortis ..

 

[Ghr9204]

And whoever exhumes you will be wondering whether it was really rigor mortis ..

Rigor mortis in ashes?

 

[LostCircuits]

I think they were able to find some rigor in the ashes of Pompeii

 

[Dr G]

Also, any ligature changes with time - eventually they stretch and/or break.

Based on what engineering principles? Or are you using “eventually” as “in the limit” to infinity?

I’ve been using the same Francois Louis lig for 20+ years with no sign of impending failure. Of course, I use it as a ligature and not a torture device for reeds.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Cheap ligs are poorly made. I've had a few let go.

My Ben Davis corroded away, but it took a century.

Some ligs have convolutions in the brass, as part of the design and straighten out or stretch over time.

I have a silver plated Bonade inverted on clarinet. It looks like it may last for ever.

I use the Selmer one screw on my saxophones. The lacquered brass ones have chips in the lacquer and corrosion spots. The silver plate version looks like new after a wipe.

I prefer a tight lig and may have acid spit.

 

[Ghr9204]

I prefer a tight lig and may have acid spit.

Seems to be normal with the traditional metal 2 screw lig. Over time get a little greenish goop. I'd occasionally take an old worn toothbrush and soap, scrub in the sink. Do the same with the mouthpiece. Good until it goops up again.

No schedule, I just do when it seems time. Same with cleaning dust between keys, marks, tarnished nickel finger marks.

None destructive (minimal/no disassembly). Pipe cleaners, que tips, cloth rag strips, gentle cleaner, etc. Avoid pads, springs, & bumper corks. Light oiling of keys, moving bearing locations, etc.

Basically CO without A.

 

[LostCircuits]

I never broke a ligature, does that make me a n00b?

I almost did with the Meyer they sent along with their anniversary edition, it was so bad I was tempted to step on it.

 

[Ghr9204]

I never broke a ligature, does that make me a n00b?

Only if you bought that 5 screw lig. 😉

 

[turf3]

Well, I've had exactly one ligature fail, but it was twice.

That very first Rovner I bought back in 1978, the screw was a different design than the current ones. Nowadays the male thread is a post if you will, and the female is a knurled nut that's what you tighten by hand; but the old ones the screw had a knurled thread that screwed into one of the two bars around which the fabric is wrapped. With that design there was a bending moment on the screw, and after some 20 years or so the brass screw fatigued and broke. So I drilled and tapped the knurled head and put a steel stud in there, and it's been fine since.

The other failure - same ligature - was that the ends of the fabric came loose - those early ones were just glued together. After who knows how many hours and gallons of sweat, humidity, and such, it came loose. So I cleaned it up real good and reglued it, and it's still holding. Newer versions are stitched AND glued.

So, good overall reports on durability of Rovner ligatures, considering how many thousands of hours I"ve put on them, and the only failures I've experienced have been addressed by design changes in later production runs.

 

[DesertRoads]

A quality well made ligature, no matter the price will last for many years. Like Dr G mentioned, he's been using the same Francois Louis ligature for the past 20+ years. It's taken me awhile to find a good ligature for both Alto and Tenor, definitely pays to pay good money for a quality ligature if you're playing often.

 

[Woodpad]

Still use some ligs from the sixties, no problems.

 

[mark_addy]

In the first order, that’s true, but none of those are easily quantified so we don’t know the actual conditions.

In the second order, there is the question of whether the high frequency vibrations emitted from the reed experience the same boundary effects - metal vs “soft” ligatures. There is certainly a difference in the impedance mismatch. In one instance, vibrations will be transmitted, in the other, vibrations will be reflected. Will it make a sufficiently substantial difference to be audible? There’s the test. Sadly, it’s not a test that I can perform as I no longer have access to the necessary kind of equipment.

Dipping in here, I spotted your post. I used to work in an Acoustics dept in a university, and I enjoyed your comment. I still have an AF analyser (OnoSokki rescued from the bin, 2 channel no less 🙂 ) and a B&K mic / preamp / PSU combo, I think one working accelerometer too somewhere with a charge amp. But I can't think what measurement might clarify this issue. Back in the day I suppose I could have vibrated the mouthpiece on a shaker and then measured reed vibration with a doppler laser interferometer (don't have one of those rescued from the bin!), but the lack of lips around it would have changed the boundary condition considerably. Would have made a nice MSc summer project for someone! cheers, Mark

 

[Woodpad]

Dipping in here, I spotted your post. I used to work in an Acoustics dept in a university, and I enjoyed your comment. I still have an AF analyser (OnoSokki rescued from the bin, 2 channel no less 🙂 ) and a B&K mic / preamp / PSU combo, I think one working accelerometer too somewhere with a charge amp. But I can't think what measurement might clarify this issue. Back in the day I suppose I could have vibrated the mouthpiece on a shaker and then measured reed vibration with a doppler laser interferometer (don't have one of those rescued from the bin!), but the lack of lips around it would have changed the boundary condition considerably. Would have made a nice MSc summer project for someone! cheers, Mark

That poor Msc will need a lot of time to standardize an embouchure before he can measure how the cookie crumbles. After that people will mention that there embouchure is different. Such projects fall in the category cruelty to students.

 

[mark_addy]

That poor Msc will need a lot of time to standardize an embouchure before he can measure how the cookie crumbles. After that people will mention that there embouchure is different. Such projects fall in the category cruelty to students.

Buuuuuwaahhaaahhaaahhaaahhaa 🙂 (I'm sure there's one of them there emojis with horns on it, but I don't know how to type it). The absence of a 'dc' lip clamp, and airflow - yes, it would be a nightmare, and some smart a*se from a 'real' university (my post was somewhere lower ranking in UK terms) would pop up and claim to be able to do it all with CFD - there's a real work of the devil. (No-one has invoked Bernoulli yet, so I will). But I used to like odd, interesting problems where you don't necessarily get very far, but you learn a lot of measurement and analysis techniques in the process - that's OK for projects for teaching purposes.

 

[Colin the Bear]

👿😈👹(^o^)

 

[mark_addy]

I'd ask you how to do that, but I'm a bit concerned there might be an initiation ceremony.

 

[Jeanette]

I'd ask you how to do that, but I'm a bit concerned there might be an initiation ceremony.

😈 From my phone emoji list

 

[mark_addy]

I'm on a pc - don't have a smart phone - so I don't have one of those. But I do currently have a bat flying around my screen, which is quite remarkable!