Saxophones Conn alto age

[jtd]

Hi All. I just came into possession of this Conn alto sax. Serial is 6503. Per all the list I've been able to find, I have a hard time with it being well over 100 years old.
What am I missing? Getting ready to make it play well again. Just regular flat metal reso's but not original 😉. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Jeff

 

[jtd]

Forgot to add pics

 

[JiJi]

Bonjour,
It looks like a Shooting Star. I don't know of a list for the four numbers. It dates maybe from the late 60s.

 

[Woodpad]

What type of guards does it have? wire or plate? I have never seen a 100 year old saxophone with plate guards. The cord ring and the G# key do not look like it comes from the the Elkhart factory. It could be a stencil from another brand. Are there any letters before or after the serial number?

 

[JiJi]

This post...

 

[PigSquealer]

Hi All. I just came into possession of this Conn alto sax. Serial is 6503. Per all the list I've been able to find, I have a hard time with it being well over 100 years old.

What is this branded as ? It’s more likely 1970. Feet cast into the palm keys started in 1927/28.
The neck, keywork, octave touch, LH pinky table all looks late ‘60s to ‘70s Conn 50m model.

What am I missing?

There’s probably a letter to left of numbers.

Just regular flat metal reso's but not original 😉.

They could be.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Jeff

Have you any previous repair experience on anything ? RC Cars, bicycles , computers/ electronics?
First Sax repair ? FWIW this sax you have is a good choice to learn repair on.
First mistake is assuming it’s easy, and it is with right tools and knowledge.
Second mistake is not reading the sentence above enough times.
First tool mistake is a using incorrect screwdriver.
Be kind to yourself. Don’t put a tool to it for a week. Do put some penetrating oil on. This on all the the screws rods between moving parts. Let it soak. PB Blaster, Kroil are better than WD-40.
Let it soak for a week and spend your time studying the task processes.
Lots of good information available. Many kind members here to help you succeed.

 

[JayeNM]

Hi All. I just came into possession of this Conn alto sax. Serial is 6503. Per all the list I've been able to find, I have a hard time with it being well over 100 years old.
What am I missing? Getting ready to make it play well again. Just regular flat metal reso's but not original 😉. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Jeff

Early 60s, the serial # confuses folks. Art Best/Coin Art facility in Nogales AZ made Vito Special USA's, it either went bankrupt in early 60s, or Conn bailed/bought them out....Conn took over the factory and adopted the Vito tooling for their new 50m shooting star, replacing their Elkhart made 14m shooting star (for whatever reason). The ones which do not fit a Conn serial sequence were actually leftover Vito bodies, yet to be engraved.

The four digit numbers are usually accompanied by a coffee-esque lacquer color, which was Vito's lacq recipe not Conns, AND the alt F# key was small cup, side mounted, unlike later 50m's which were backdoor large cup.

Original assumption was Conn ran the CoinArt plant in AZ all thru 60's, but then one Conn aficionado on SOTW uncovered a trail suggesting Conn only was there for a few years then CoinArt reestablished there and Conn took the 50m tooling back to Elkhart.

This theory makes more sense to me because Coinart WAS operating as a company in the early 70s...and was a subcontractor for Conn parts then.

Some old documents suggest Conn actually helped CoinArt restructure themselves OUT of bankruptcy in the 60s...but then, when MacMillan took over Conn in 1970 they actually helped sink CoinArt with a hostile takeover ...which got into a lawsuit by CoinArt employees vs. Conn. Fwiw...

 

[turf3]

It's my understanding that these 50Ms are at bottom, a Beaugnier design.

I thought that there was a period when the 50M, Beaugnier design, once made by Coin Art as Vito, was made across town in the Conn plant in Nogales MX (Nogales is all one city, half in US, half in MX)?

At any rate, OP, what you've got there is early 60s to early 70s, if it doesn't say "Mexico" on it, it was made either in Nogales on the AZ side, or possibly (see Jaye post) back in Elkhart; the basic design is a Beaugnier design, and from my brief experience, these are actually darn nice horns. No one wants them; they don't even have the Conn lineage of a 14M or 16M Director, but they play really well, I think.

 

[JayeNM]

It's my understanding that these 50Ms are at bottom, a Beaugnier design.

I thought that there was a period when the 50M, Beaugnier design, once made by Coin Art as Vito, was made across town in the Conn plant in Nogales MX (Nogales is all one city, half in US, half in MX)?

At any rate, OP, what you've got there is early 60s to early 70s, if it doesn't say "Mexico" on it, it was made either in Nogales on the AZ side, or possibly (see Jaye post) back in Elkhart; the basic design is a Beaugnier design, and from my brief experience, these are actually darn nice horns. No one wants them; they don't even have the Conn lineage of a 14M or 16M Director, but they play really well, I think.

Yes, indeed, literally the 'lowly' Shooting Star alto is...a French Beaugnier design in its pedigree....probably why it sounds so good and blows so nicely...

Who'd'a thunk ?

Absolutely Conn opened the Nogales, MX plant and started producing the 50m and 16m there, along with the shortlived but quite respectable 7m, starting in '70.

The pics by @PigSquealer in post #6 are of an MX made 50m....black rollers, no 'usa' engraved under 'Conn'. Also quite respectable horns once a tech someplace along the line corrects some assembly loosey-goosies (key play, occasional key armature issues, sometimes cups not centering on holes, etc).

But when folks ask me if I have any serviced $400 Altos, they are usually quite fine with a completely worked up MX shooting star...so they have their niche in the used alto world.

A USA one can fetch $500-550....

 

[turf3]

Well, I'd be happy to play any gig on the Mexi-Conn-Beaugnier my friend acquired for $20. Nice horn, that.

 

[Stocker]

Early 60s, the serial # confuses folks. Art Best/Coin Art facility in Nogales AZ made Vito Special USA's, it either went bankrupt in early 60s, or Conn bailed/bought them out....Conn took over the factory and adopted the Vito tooling for their new 50m shooting star, replacing their Elkhart made 14m shooting star (for whatever reason). The ones which do not fit a Conn serial sequence were actually leftover Vito bodies, yet to be engraved.

The four digit numbers are usually accompanied by a coffee-esque lacquer color, which was Vito's lacq recipe not Conns, AND the alt F# key was small cup, side mounted, unlike later 50m's which were backdoor large cup.

Original assumption was Conn ran the CoinArt plant in AZ all thru 60's, but then one Conn aficionado on SOTW uncovered a trail suggesting Conn only was there for a few years then CoinArt reestablished there and Conn took the 50m tooling back to Elkhart.

This theory makes more sense to me because Coinart WAS operating as a company in the early 70s...and was a subcontractor for Conn parts then.

Some old documents suggest Conn actually helped CoinArt restructure themselves OUT of bankruptcy in the 60s...but then, when MacMillan took over Conn in 1970 they actually helped sink CoinArt with a hostile takeover ...which got into a lawsuit by CoinArt employees vs. Conn. Fwiw...

I don't think the early 50Ms were actually leftover Vito bodies - they made over 10,000 of them and there's no way that Art Best Mfg. could've made that many bodies in the few months the factory was operating pre-bankruptcy, and it's unlikely that they'd've tried storing that many there. I think it's far more likely that, since Conn purportedly kept Art Best to run the plant, he just continued the same production ledger until Conn closed it.

 

[PigSquealer]

The pics by @PigSquealer in post #6 are of an MX made 50m....black rollers, no 'usa' engraved under 'Conn'.

Correct. SN# N 92712, Mexico.

 

[ghostler]

I hope you don't mind, @jtd with me piggy backing onto your post with similar questions on a Conn? 😀 (I'm not a "dyed in wool CONNman". Others can question my sanity with my Parole Officer.) 😉

Today I scored from eBay US a Conn project student sax rather clean for its age, no major dents, missing a few key pearls and neck tenon screw, with usual student rash - scratched and eroded lacquer, tarnish, etc. Appears to be a low mileage one for $90 plus the other charges, $130 total. Serial Number appears to be C172xxx (lacquer wear, and tarnish makes it harder to read):

Case is in extremely clean condition, similar to Bundy II one I have that is black moulded thin skin ABS shell with aluminium edges. Just curious, but did I do good or not? Comments on its worthiness when restored? What model and year do I have?

 

[Stocker]

It's an 18M, and - assuming the "C" you have for the serial number is actually an "N" - made in 1983.