Saxophones Conn 10m.... Could this be the one?

[Saxlicker]

So I'd say if you can accommodate the mechanisms, you'll save money with an old 10M over many alternatives, and have as good a horn as you can possibly have. As many would note, subjectively saying, maybe the best possible horn.

The thing that differs from this in the OP's case, so far as I'm aware is that @teen37 is not necessarily looking for one of the more expensive selmers. A series 1 Super 80 was a contender.

 

[turf3]

A problem that doesn't exist?
A headless screw provides for a means of constant adjustment, but the perennial problem is how to ensure they stay put....

Well, OK, it's a problem that kinda exists, but putting tiny set screws that are just dying to rust solid in the posts is a case of taking an issue that needs to be addressed infrequently (wear in the sockets requiring to be tightened up) and replacing it with a potential major issue (set screw rusts into post, damn near impossible to get the pivot screw out, as required for many common and fairly frequent service operations).

Headless screw with nylon locking element; headless screw with lock nut; or just plain old headed screw that you counterbore a bit deeper when needed; all are better designs than the Conn set screws.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Well, OK, it's a problem that kinda exists, but putting tiny set screws that are just dying to rust solid in the posts is a case of taking an issue that needs to be addressed infrequently (wear in the sockets requiring to be tightened up) and replacing it with a potential major issue (set screw rusts into post, damn near impossible to get the pivot screw out, as required for many common and fairly frequent service operations).

Headless screw with nylon locking element; headless screw with lock nut; or just plain old headed screw that you counterbore a bit deeper when needed; all are better designs than the Conn set screws.

Yep, on that point I wholeheartedly agreed. In fact I'd go so far as to say it was lunacy.
In terms of time/labour alone it can cost you £40 to have one of those grub screws extracted...and there are upwards of 20 of the things on the average Conn.
And they don't even work.

 

[LostCircuits]

Yep, on that point I wholeheartedly agreed. In fact I'd go so far as to say it was lunacy.
In terms of time/labour alone it can cost you £40 to have one of those grub screws extracted...and there are upwards of 20 of the things on the average Conn.
And they don't even work.

I hate extractions, they are like pulling teeth..
Motor mounts, lug bolts, and of course, on saxophones.

But, OP, if you have set your sights on a Conn !0M, by all means, they are wonderful horns but you may just look at some vintage Buescher Aristocrats or King Super20/Zephyr as well.
They are different from the Conns but they are in the same league. Or even a Martin
I have all 4 makes and I play all of them depending on the flavor of the day but my work horses are Buescher and King.

 

[JayeNM]

So guys😊☺️. I ve recently discussed with some of you, possible upgrades to move on from my Arbiter Pro jazz tenor. I almost went to try out a selmer SA80I but decided against it in the end.

Now, whilst I am not in any rush to move on just yet, I think it is definitely on the cards to happen at some point over the coming months. 😉

I was very drawn to a Selmer initially, but have stumbled across some YouTube videos on the Conn 10m.

Having watched a few comparison videos on Selmer mark VI Vs Conn 10m, (not that I was looking at the Mark VI 😳) I immediately noticed how different the tone was between them. The selmer sound much cleaner, crisper, whereas the Conn was a little warmer, fluffier 😳 (is that sacrilege to use fluffy and Conn in the same sentence?.... 🤔😳🤷)
I thought it would be just that one video so I watched a few others and yeah, it was still "fluffy" ☺️ I really liked the "fluffy" sound.
Someone said it was because they were made during the Swing era and so were more "harmonic" and "softer" built for a more acoustic environment and they blended well in a section with the likes of Buescher's. In context, this made so much sense to me.
Someone commented in my last post that perhaps I didn't really know at this stage what direction I wanted to go in looking for a new/old tenor, they were correct, I didn't know. But now I think I do 💡😳🤔

So... If this is a light bulb moment could y'all please enlighten me as to your opinions and experience with the Conn 10m tenor sax.

Is there a particular year or time period that was better than others to look for?

Any faults to look out for?

Are they harder to blow because they are so old?

What's an average price these sell for?

And really any other areas I've not thought about 🤔☺️

The points have already been raised, so all I am doing is reiterating some of the above...

Here are some GOOD TO GREAT TENORS under $2500usd potentially EVERYONE SHOULD CONSIDER:

Buffet 100 or 400
Allora Paris or Chicago
YANI T6 or 8xx Series
Selmer USA 164, T100, T110
Yamaha 52, 34, or 575
Giardinelli by Eastman ( stencil of Eastman 640)
B&S 1000 or Blue Label
Keilwerth EX
Vito, France Duke or T38-9
Grassi 2000 or 2000 Pro
Conn 10M
Holton Revelation or 241/3
King Zephyr, serial 250-385,xxx
Buescher Aristocrat, any era up to Selmer Buyout
Martin Committee or Indiana
Jupiter 700, 787/9, 710, 687/9, 8xx or 9xx series.
Buescher 400 Top Hat & Cane
King Super 20, Eastlake made (Eastlakes tend to be cheaper than the grail versions of Cleveland and honestly, same design minus some aesthetic bling)
Maurice Boiste
Desidera, Italy
Hohner President (Max Keilwerth)

If you play Tenor and have NOT TRIED THESE...you are just selling yourself SHORT. I think I left out another ten....

Oh, and actually, PLENTY OF 'WORKING PROS' play vintage horns. "Major label recording artists" and 'working pros' are not synonymous terms. You want a few big names then here's Nubya Garcia and Charles Lloyd...but what does that really matter in an age of hyper-commercialism and aggressive endorsement campaigns by instrument makers, anyway ?

Point is, great players DO play vintage horns, it is not 'uncommon'...

Second point is...what does that question MATTER to an intermediate player currently playing what is probably a 'base model' horn ?

Not much, prolly....

So, playing a vintage Tenor is BOTH exactly the SAME as playing a modern one...

.....and completely DIFFERENT.

Depending on one's yardstick.

Don't thank me......😳

 

[JayeNM]

You see my point here ?

@teen37 ...you have just gone down the Sax Hole. Maybe we can drop a line down and retrieve you...or at least send some food and drink while figuring what to do next.

Your conversations began by wondering whether fixing up a Taiwanese Arbiter...which in truth nobody here KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT FACTORY it was made at...or buying a better horn.

Then the usual Yamaha intermediate, Jupiter, even Selmer 80 suggestions were made. All perfectly valid.

Then you heard the 10M and were smitten. Understandable. NOTHING QUITE sounds like a 10M. And that ENGRAVING ! VA-VOOM !

But a 10M is, by many measures, a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TENOR than the aforementioned modern horns are.
Tonality wise.
Ergonomically.
Blowing wise.
Intonational flex-wise.

To name but a few 'wises'.

It in many ways 'plays like' any Tenor.
And in many ways 'plays unlike' any Tenor.

So, are you ready and willing to expand into what vintage offers ? Would you be cool with casting off some of the familiarity in feel, tone, response of a modern horn ? For models which have different qualities in those categories ?

 

[JayeNM]

So....'what to do' ?

Find a walk in shop that sells used saxes, ask them if they have any vintage horns other than Selmers. Preferably a couple or more to try. Or maybe find a locality with multiple shops with used horns (no easy feat anymore). Take a field trip !!!

Playtest them, see how they feel and respond to you. Do they feel comfortable ? Does anything strike you as uncomfortable or odd or difficult ?

This assuming the shop(s) would have the horn in playable condition. SOME walk in shops, and this BEFUDDLES me to no end....actually do NOT service their used horns or consignment horns, leaving the potential customer playtesting a leaky sax....

 

[teen37]

You see my point here ?

@teen37 ...you have just gone down the Sax Hole. Maybe we can drop a line down and retrieve you...or at least send some food and drink while figuring what to do next.

Your conversations began by wondering whether fixing up a Taiwanese Arbiter...which in truth nobody here KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT FACTORY it was made at...or buying a better horn.

Then the usual Yamaha intermediate, Jupiter, even Selmer 80 suggestions were made. All perfectly valid.

Then you heard the 10M and were smitten. Understandable. NOTHING QUITE sounds like a 10M. And that ENGRAVING ! VA-VOOM !

But a 10M is, by many measures, a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TENOR than the aforementioned modern horns are.
Tonality wise.
Ergonomically.
Blowing wise.
Intonational flex-wise.

To name but a few 'wises'.

It in many ways 'plays like' any Tenor.
And in many ways 'plays unlike' any Tenor.

So, are you ready and willing to expand into what vintage offers ? Would you be cool with casting off some of the familiarity in feel, tone, response of a modern horn ? For models which have different qualities in those categories ?

That's a lot to take in with that extensive list there 😳...

But yes, all good advice and suggestions thanks,

And yes I am prepared to investigate vintage horns for sure, but there will be some things to take into consideration that y'all have highlighted here in this post when the time comes.

This has certainly given me food for thought going forward.

And as you made the point..... I'm just an intermediate player on a base model.... so at the end of the day what does it really matter?...... except to me of course, 😏🤷

Guess we'll see where this goes guys 🤔🤷

 

[teen37]

Thank you all for your time and consideration here,.... Appreciated 🙏

 

[teen37]

@Stephen Howard I'll be in touch soon about getting down to you to take a look at my sax, thank you 🙏

 

[LostCircuits]

And as you made the point..... I'm just an intermediate player on a base model.... so at the end of the day what does it really matter?...... except to me of course, 😏🤷

Guess we'll see where this goes guys 🤔🤷

You will see where it goes when you take one horn in your hands and you feel that sizzling under your fingertips. Maybe that's an exaggeration but something like that is bound to happen and you'll know when it does.

 

[teen37]

You will see where it goes when you take one horn in your hands and you feel that sizzling under your fingertips. Maybe that's an exaggeration but something like that is bound to happen and you'll know when it does.

Thank you, encouraging words 🙏

 

[Woodpad]

A small remark on embouchure and the differences between the Conn 10M, Selmer M6 and Yanagisawa 911 . Some saxophone players require resistance from the saxophone for their breath control. That is not necessary as there are enough people who can work without this resistance. Some instruments as the trombone and the flute are build with a low resistance and others as the oboe and the clarinet build up more resistance when played. The Conn 10M is build with the lowest resistance, the Yanagisawa with the highest. In general learning to play saxophones with a low resistance takes longer, but it doesn't limit you to the group of saxophones with a high resistance. Other perks are more contrast between soft and loud and more different sounds. Historically a lot of saxophone methods are developed by clarinet players and favor a high resistance embouchure.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Don't get conned by buying a Conn, get a VI.
Couldn't resist-ance that giggle, I'm wearing Chuck Taylors.

Great that Señor Howard will sort it out. 😍

 

[Greg Strange]

A small remark on embouchure and the differences between the Conn 10M, Selmer M6 and Yanagisawa 911 . Some saxophone players require resistance from the saxophone for their breath control. That is not necessary as there are enough people who can work without this resistance. Some instruments as the trombone and the flute are build with a low resistance and others as the oboe and the clarinet build up more resistance when played. The Conn 10M is build with the lowest resistance, the Yanagisawa with the highest. In general learning to play saxophones with a low resistance takes longer, but it doesn't limit you to the group of saxophones with a high resistance. Other perks are more contrast between soft and loud and more different sounds. Historically a lot of saxophone methods are developed by clarinet players and favor a high resistance embouchure.

I believe Porsche made a 911 not Yanagisawa - one has a flat six engine and four wheels and the other one doesn't...


Greg S.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Flat 6 or Aug 5th. Don't get us started.

 

[Grumps]

And yes I am prepared to investigate vintage horns for sure, but there will be some things to take into consideration that y'all have highlighted here in this post when the time comes.

I grew up playing vintage saxophones and then moved on to more modern ones as I progressed through school. Most of my horns were Selmers. Flash forward to a time when a business associate gave me an old horn that was lying around in storage and as soon as I gave it a blow, I recognized my true preference for vintage horns. That was almost thirty years ago and I've since moved out the Selmers and moved in the older vintage American horns.

That said, if you've only been playing modern horns, a vintage horn might not feel right for you. And you'll only know this when one is in your hands. So definitely don't buy sight-unseen or go by someone else's reverence for a certain model or make. You have to try them to find out.

 

[Dr G]

FWIW, don’t assume that all vintage horns share much of anything in common other than age. This includes the subcategory of vintage American tenors. As much as I enjoy hearing some people play a good 10M, I don’t care to play them. I much prefer to play Buescher or King tenors that have been well-maintained and properly overhauled in recent years.

You really do need to play a lot of horns to learn what works best with your body and airstream.

 

[teen37]

@Grumps @Dr G , that's what I'm getting from this whole post guys, you have both voiced my thoughts.... To try and play a few vintage horns to see how I feel about them myself.

Thanks guys 😘🙏

 

[thomsax]

Vintage saxophone what is that? For 50 years ago some saxes that we today call for "vintage", were called intermediate back then. Today the same sax can be called vintage. When internet became an arena to judge and talk about saxes, the numbers of "vintage horns" increased.