Saxophones Conn 10m.... Could this be the one?

[teen37]

Regarding trade shows, are there actually sax shows which feature a good variety of vintage horns in play condition that are testable ?

I see a couple purveyors on that list...I wonder how many different models they'd bring ?

I have not been to many of these, but the ones I went to featured a wide selection of mfr's CURRENTLY AVAILABLE wares....although again tgat one seems to be trying to offer more variety.

So, to me it sedms if you are now opening your search to vintage, and you wanna playtest...you have little choice but to search out individual sellers within distance to you, or walk-in shops...

Playtesting at shows....You are playtesting in a pretty unnatural context...so not only would it be harder for you to assess 'the niceties'...but it may well be those niceties are what would distinguish one from the other, to you.

It's sorta like buying an animal companion at a pet show....

Yes you have something there 🤔
Also, I'm not convinced after all this that a vintage horn is for me. Obviously I can't say for sure at this point as I've only ever tried an old selmer donkeys years ago that had been setup by the shop owner 😳 and I could barely get a note out. He was trying to sell it to me at the time for about £500, I wasn't having any of it even if it was a Selmer whatever (can't remember)
I am definitely considering a used horn though as I'd like to get as close to a pro horn as possible for my 2 grand budget.

Guess we'll see what turns up 🤷

 

[JayeNM]

I have played a 4c for some years but just changed to otto link tone edge 6 😉 I love it! But still have problems getting clean notes C and below 🤷
This is the whole question mark here. Do I spend however much getting it overhauled?.... or as it's a "base model" as was mentioned earlier, play as is and put that money to better use getting an upgrade?
I've decided after all your comments here to forgo the overhaul and put the money towards another horn. The question has been really, was the Conn 10m the one to look at? I liked the sound for sure but several valid points have been made by y'all that's made up my mind on it already.
I do think that the point I'm getting overall is that you have to find the horn that suits you and speaks to you and yes, I think that should certainly work with your existing mpc/reed setup, otherwise you're then left with another search to match up a mouthpiece to suit a horn! One that may not give you the sound you love. Seems A about T to me 🤔🤷

I THINK....IF....the horn ACTUALLY NEEDED a full overhaul....you do not do that. I mean, get a price estimate if so....but...

Your convos here have been running on an assumption that your horn probably needs, at most, just a thorough tune up and adjust, maybe a cleaning. Certainly not a full repad.

When you start getting into a question of 'do I overhaul a base model Taiwan horn or do I look for a step up model' ?....the general internet 'wisdom' (term used loooooosely) would be 'do not spend 1000quid on a base model of unknown factory'.

2g can buy you a vintage pro model tenor...not a Selmer VI or a full pearl King Super 20....but certainly a 10M, late Super 20, Martin Committee, Couf Superba, Buescher Aristocrat or 400, Grassi 2000, Buffet SDA, most of the 'usual suspects' in the vintage pantheon....

To your mouthpiece question, either the 4C or Link are pretty neutral mouthpieces so both would be decent enough for your playtests

 

[turf3]

Fair enough....but...you would STILL TAKE your Berg to playtest the Conn...no ? Just to see. You wouldn't leave it at home.

Also, you have gone to polarities here to make your point (which isn't a bad point). You even mention that 'extreme'.

All I was saying is I don't think there's anything silly about playtesting candidates with your favorite mouthpieces....

In your scenario, I'd bring 'my' Berg (if I had one, which I don't, I actually hate 'em) then maybe another of my 'pieces which was more 'neutral'. And I'd sorta expect in advance, the Berg to be a fail

Well, I don't pretend to be able to establish a rule. Yeah, using limit-case situations to make a point.

Yeah, if my preferred MP was something "extreme" I'd try candidate horns with it. But beyond that, I dunno.

When I play tested a Buescher bass sax (the first bassax I'd played in 35 years or so) I tried it out first with my genuine old style bass MP (enormous chamber, small facing) and thought "meh". Then I shoved a Meyer baritone piece on it and the horn came alive. Not sure what that story really means. Next bassax play testing round, I started with the Meyer. Not sure what that means, either, to be honest.

 

[turf3]

I have played a 4c for some years but just changed to otto link tone edge 6 😉 I love it! But still have problems getting clean notes C and below 🤷
This is the whole question mark here. Do I spend however much getting it overhauled?.... or as it's a "base model" as was mentioned earlier, play as is and put that money to better use getting an upgrade?
I've decided after all your comments here to forgo the overhaul and put the money towards another horn. The question has been really, was the Conn 10m the one to look at? I liked the sound for sure but several valid points have been made by y'all that's made up my mind on it already.
I do think that the point I'm getting overall is that you have to find the horn that suits you and speaks to you and yes, I think that should certainly work with your existing mpc/reed setup, otherwise you're then left with another search to match up a mouthpiece to suit a horn! One that may not give you the sound you love. Seems A about T to me 🤔🤷

OK, several points to unpack there.

First off, both a 4C and a Link are what I'd call "moderate" designs.

If you're having trouble with a recent production Link on low notes, this may be a QC problem with the mouthpiece. Except for the very latest production which is now done by the Theo Wanne company, Link and other Babbitt products have a reputation for weak QC.

"The sound" you've heard from a Conn 10M is someone else playing it and being recorded, and then you hearing it through your own signal chain. Consider it a piece of data, but it is NOT the same as you, yourself, getting hold of a Conn 10M in good playing condition, putting YOUR mouthpiece on it and blowing it for yourself.

I also very much doubt that your existing tenor, which you've described as having little actual play time, needs any kind of "overhaul". Far more likely, I think, that it needs some adjustments, some improvements in regulation, maybe a couple pads replaced. Far from an "overhaul".

That said, there's no inherent problem in getting a wee bit of playing time on horns other than your own - but just be aware that if you play one and it seems WAY better than your current one, some of that is likely to be setup and condition and adjustment.

So, I'd not establish some kind of fixed decision yet. Rather, I'd try to gather as much personal experience as possible first. Get a quote on a "playing condition service" on the Arbiter. Play as many horns of different types as possible. See what your opinions settle into without prematurely deciding what they're going to be. Keep mind open till last minute.

 

[JayeNM]

Could also just be the Link tip opening is larger than the 4c so that takes a little woodshedding and some reed experimentation....assuming again horn isn't leaking...

My guess would be (and I am hardly coming from an objective position here)....as with most people used to a contemporary Asian, non-top-shelf model.....the reaction upon playtesting a classic like a 10M or Committee or even a Keilwerth vintage, in full play shape....will still be 'WOW' or 'OMG'.....

....at least in the Sonic dept...

"feel' might be something else....

 

[Dr G]

Hmmmm....so you have a fave mouthpiece that fits you like a glove. You can do everything you want on it. You may be in the market for a new to you horn. You leave the mouthpiece at home ?

I would posit, instead, that one of the checklist points on assessing a 'new' horn would be 'how does it work with my favorite mouthpiece' ?
That seems pretty reasonable to me.

More reasonable than 'I found this horn I like but it doesn't match well to my favorite mouthpiece, it worked better with some others, on brief playtests, so I am gonna buy the horn and I guess I will have to go thru matching up this horn to a different mouthpiece'.

It depends, doesn’t it? Is the player looking for a similar horn or something very different in concept and response?

Both of your scenarios are credible.

 

[Pete Effamy]

"The sound" you've heard from a Conn 10M is someone else playing it and being recorded, and then you hearing it through your own signal chain. Consider it a piece of data, but it is NOT the same as you, yourself, getting hold of a Conn 10M in good playing condition, putting YOUR mouthpiece on it and blowing it for yourself.

Yes, and wherever they’re placing that sound too. For example: we know of so many players since the ‘70’s / ‘80’s playing on Mk6’s. We think of them as “modern” players - Brecker, Sanborn, Marienthal, Snitzer - the list is enormous. But the Mk6 came out in 1954, and we probably don’t associate mid - 50’s / 60’s players with being “modern” (yes I know Sanborn was with Paul Butterfield in 1967) - you know what I mean.

So yes, what everyone says about each player having their own inbuilt sound is true but it can be steered bright side or dark side, and this depends upon your own sound concept and what you’re trying to achieve, and what sort of help you get from mouthpiece and reed selection.

So: if you wanted a dark, fluffy sound, any sax can be played in that way; and it’s easier if you have a setup that leans that way. Same for bright tones.

So, you can’t necessarily fixate on a certain horn for a certain sound.

I’d be tempted to use your 4C with a relatively soft reed (2 or 2.5) as a test control mouthpiece. That way you’ll know that everything should speak on any horn you pick up as long as it’s airtight. Beyond that, you feel the minute differences in how the horns respond to.

And forget any major intonation issues. If you like how the horn responds and vibrates then enquire whether your mouthpiece is creating a problem.

 

[Grumps]

... otherwise you're then left with another search to match up a mouthpiece to suit a horn!

Just because you may favor a certain mouthpiece doesn't mean it's going to work on every horn for you; especially when you enter vintage horns into the mix. Often enough I've really wanted a certain mouthpiece to work on a horn I've picked up, but found a better match with another style or brand of mouthpiece. Married to a mouthpiece isn't always the way to go and I for one will match the mouthpiece to the horn, and not the other way around.

 

[teen37]

Well,..... 🤔
Well!..... 😔
I feel utterly ignorant to be honest guys....
I've a lot to learn by the looks 😳
Good job y'all are here to point me in the right direction huh 🤔😉
At this point I'm not sure what the question was 😳😳😳
Sooo many answers.... 😳😳😳🤔😅

 

[turf3]

Well,..... 🤔
Well!..... 😔
I feel utterly ignorant to be honest guys....
I've a lot to learn by the looks 😳
Good job y'all are here to point me in the right direction huh 🤔😉
At this point I'm not sure what the question was 😳😳😳
Sooo many answers.... 😳😳😳🤔😅

It's complicated. That's why the "answers" are so complicated.

But you can choose how far you wish to fall into the equipment morass. You COULD, you know, just get your cheap and cheerful student tenor given a "playing condition" service, and stop there. Or you could try out dozens of new and old horns and try to find the one that really does it for you more than any other. Or anywhere in between.

Even though I've tried out quite a few horns in my playing life, I've actually onluy rarely ever changed horns.

Let's leave soprano aside, as I've somehow ended up with THREE of the little devils...

Alto - same horn since 1978 (OK, I acquired a backup about 2010, but that was a deal too good to pass up) [48 years]
Tenor - same horn since 1998 - same make and model since 1982, same make since 1978 [28 years]
Baritone - same horn since 1984 [42 years]

For mouthpieces:

Alto - same main MP since ~1998 [28 years]
Tenor - same main jazz MP since 1978 [48 years] ; same main rock and pop MP since 1981-2 [35 years]
Baritone - same main MP since 2006 [20 years]

So you CAN just say "here I stand" and be done with it.

 

[JayeNM]

Well,..... 🤔
Well!..... 😔
I feel utterly ignorant to be honest guys....
I've a lot to learn by the looks 😳
Good job y'all are here to point me in the right direction huh 🤔😉
At this point I'm not sure what the question was 😳😳😳
Sooo many answers.... 😳😳😳🤔😅

Lol....

1) Your current mouthpieces are fine or playtesting vintage or modern horns

2) that show might be a good place to at least get a chance to try some so you can see if the feel, ergos, tone of vintage horns is something which feels and sounds fine for you....or not.
Also keep your antenna up on any local listings which may appear for Tenors in your price range...
Hopefully....the vintage purveyors at that show are not gonna show up with just 5000quid and up Tenors...

3) still DO get a repair estimate for your current axe

 

[skeller047]

This thread started out with the idea that a Conn 10M might help @teen37 get the sound she is looking for. We have now reached the point that

a) A visit to the inestimable Stephen Howard might help sort out matters with the current horn.
b) A visit to a saxophone show (soundtrack: Fred Astaire singing Cheek To Cheek) might expose the OP to many different models of saxophone
c) A question as to the viability of her current mouthpiece, a Tone Edge 6. There are problems in the lower register - is it the horn or the mouthpiece?
d) Poor @teen37 is suffering from a small bit of indecision mixed with information overload.

I think a) and b) above are reasonable things to do, and both may help with c) and d).

Bottom line - a new-to-you saxophone is a momentous purchase. Not because of the price; washing machines can easily be more money. But because of the emotional and artistic impact the instrument has. You are looking for something that FITS. Soncially fits your concept of sound and physically fits your body.

So - my advice is go see Mr. Howard as soon as you can; I don’t know him personally, he’s thousands of miles away from me, but I have read his books and interacted with him here, and he’s one of the “good ones”. Also go to the show in a couple weeks, and play the horns there. Both of these things will help you in your decision. This is an important decision for you, and the path forward isn’t clear yet.

As a point of information - I have had three tenors in my life. The first was a Buescher, I had it in high school, and I didn’t actually own it, but I rented it for a year. The second was a Mark VI I bought used in 1977, and the third was a Taiwanese horn (Phil Barone brand, no longer made) I got in 2011. I still have those two. I love them both. In that same time period, I have owned maybe 5 or 6 washing machines, so have spent way more money on them than on tenors. None of them, including the current one, have been at all memorable. My horns have names.

 

[Pete Effamy]

This thread started out with the idea that a Conn 10M might help @teen37 get the sound she is looking for. We have now reached the point that

a) A visit to the inestimable Stephen Howard might help sort out matters with the current horn.
b) A visit to a saxophone show (soundtrack: Fred Astaire singing Cheek To Cheek) might expose the OP to many different models of saxophone
c) A question as to the viability of her current mouthpiece, a Tone Edge 6. There are problems in the lower register - is it the horn or the mouthpiece?
d) Poor @teen37 is suffering from a small bit of indecision mixed with information overload.

I think a) and b) above are reasonable things to do, and both may help with c) and d).

Bottom line - a new-to-you saxophone is a momentous purchase. Not because of the price; washing machines can easily be more money. But because of the emotional and artistic impact the instrument has. You are looking for something that FITS. Soncially fits your concept of sound and physically fits your body.

So - my advice is go see Mr. Howard as soon as you can; I don’t know him personally, he’s thousands of miles away from me, but I have read his books and interacted with him here, and he’s one of the “good ones”. Also go to the show in a couple weeks, and play the horns there. Both of these things will help you in your decision. This is an important decision for you, and the path forward isn’t clear yet.

As a point of information - I have had three tenors in my life. The first was a Buescher, I had it in high school, and I didn’t actually own it, but I rented it for a year. The second was a Mark VI I bought used in 1977, and the third was a Taiwanese horn (Phil Barone brand, no longer made) I got in 2011. I still have those two. I love them both. In that same time period, I have owned maybe 5 or 6 washing machines, so have spent way more money on them than on tenors. None of them, including the current one, have been at all memorable. My horns have names.

How did you choose the washing machines and did you look at lots?

 

[skeller047]

How did you choose the washing machines and did you look at lots?

I had insider’s knowledge. My grandfather was a low level executive for National Cash Register, and retired at age 55. I was about 10 at that time. He got bored and bought a coin operated laundromat as a business venture. He soon owned a chain of 3 laundromats.

As a teenager, when I wasn’t at music camp during the summer, I was staying with my grandparents and helphing my grandfather clean and maintain his dozens of machines. He did most of that work himself, being a farm-bred man with a strong make-it-work streak. I learned that strength and simplicity were the most important things about a washing machine. I wish more manufacturers understood that.

 

[mizmar]

Been following this and associated threads...

So - my advice is go see Mr. Howard...

All solid advice.

But, as I see it

You are looking for something that FITS. Soncially fits your concept of sound and physically fits your body.

What the OP seems to want is an emotional attachment to a horn (as well)
And, if that's it, fair enough, people need what they need.

Getting the existing horn sorted chez Howard will provide both a working instrument and a story; and that could provide enough to live with for a bit. That'll give you space till you find something that hits home.

 

[teen37]

OK guys.... Just to set the record straight on the otto link..... No fault lies there as its one of the new Theo Wanne ones since he went in and sorted out the Babbit factory I'm assured by Sax. Co. As I did raise the issue of QC on these particular Mpc's 😁 I also tested it in the shop along with two vandoren V16's (T6L & T7L) and also a Jody Jazz hr.
All tested on their student Sakkusu vintage tenor with a new vandoren blue box 2.5 reed.
Now I noticed an obvious difference between all 4 Mpc's.
Loved the Link, sounded exactly as I thought it should, lots of subtone.
Didn't like either of the V16's, too much resistance surprisingly, and a little scratchy sounding to me 🤷
Loved the Jody Jazz hr, so free blowing, a little louder and cleaner sounding, less subtone but still really nice. 🤔☺️👌
Went back onto the link just to make sure and knew straight away this was the one. 💯 Hubby sat listening to it all and agreed 😘
So, I can say with full confidence that there's nout wrong with the mouthpiece 😅😁👍💯

Its safe to say that I'm definitely overwhelmed with all the information on this post 😅😳 and now very slightly confused as to what to do 🤷🙄

You guys have been great, you're all so knowledgeable and it's appreciated the time you've taken to help me here 😘🙏

I need to think on it. I have 4 Mpc's upstairs, all completely different. I'm going to play around with them over the next couple of weeks, see how the horn responds.

After all is said and done, it could be me at fault here 😳🙄🤷

Did I mention that you guys are awesome ☺️😘

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Four MPs and a horn that might not be working?
Get the horn sorted out, and decide on a mouthpiece to get in practice with.
If you decide that you want to play test other horns, use that MP.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Loved the Link, sounded exactly as I thought it should, lots of subtone.
Didn't like either of the V16's, too much resistance surprisingly, and a little scratchy sounding to me 🤷
Loved the Jody Jazz hr, so free blowing, a little louder and cleaner sounding, less subtone but still really nice.

Something for me doesn’t add up here. Subtone surely is a saxophone playing technique, not a mouthpiece quality.

 

[scotsman]

😉😉😉Hi Teen27.. Lots of stuff here I see. Let me mention my personal experience. I started as we all do on a cheap alto. It helped me realise that I had a lot to learn but if you are in love with playing saxes then names really dont matter that much. However!!! I got a Conn 10m 1936 Rolled tone holes from a pal for £250 quid.It was a relaquer of course but the tone was there. I had a word with Steve Crow (the absolute master of Conn rebuilds) he lives near you by the way who put me on the right track. Listen to Dave o Higgins if you want to hear what can be done on a Vintage Conn tenor, I recently purchased a 1935 horn which had been serviced, and modified, by Steve Crow for years (the sound of which was to die for). I would rate it along with a Selmer MK6 (of which i have) and regually swap between them, The ergonomics really dont bother me and they are indeed "horses for courses" Both are saxophones. both are now like comfortable slippers and both give me imense pleasure. As Chris Potter says "Its the Sound" Have a listen to the Chris Potter Youtube item entitled "Open Minds" the first 20 seconds. To finish, could I mention that playing saxes is a personal love story" Regards.. Here is the link you need.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si-7m7u84Do

😉😉

 

[Merryfisher]

Yes you have something there 🤔
Also, I'm not convinced after all this that a vintage horn is for me. Obviously I can't say for sure at this point as I've only ever tried an old selmer donkeys years ago that had been setup by the shop owner 😳 and I could barely get a note out. He was trying to sell it to me at the time for about £500, I wasn't having any of it even if it was a Selmer whatever (can't remember)
I am definitely considering a used horn though as I'd like to get as close to a pro horn as possible for my 2 grand budget.

Guess we'll see what turns up 🤷

I have 10M for sale listed in yardsale....it in really good shape and plays great..