Saxophone beginners Come on now, join the band....(Beginners blog)

[Pete Thomas]

I've noticed than when I make the genrally suggested “AAAH” sound as if I'm singing it, my tongue sits down low in my mouth. For me this produces more of an AARGH almost guttural sound and I can feel tension in my throat and hear it in the pinched tone.

For me lowering the tongue seems to reduce the flow of air. When my tongue is relaxed in a more natural and slightly higher position and I think 'OOOO', the sound is smoother and fuller. If I raise the back of my tongue higher I get more of a EEE sound.

I’ve seen people talk about this vowel thing but never understood what it means. So I don’t know what is meant by making an AAAH sound while playing the saxophone. But if it works for you and improves your playing that’s a good thing. But beware there is a lot of saxophone teaching mumbo jumbo out there.

 

[cappers]

I’ve seen people talk about this vowel thing but never understood what it means. So I don’t know what is meant by making an AAAH sound while playing the saxophone. But if it works for you and improves your playing that’s a good thing. But beware there is a lot of saxophone teaching mumbo jumbo out there.

I wonder if it's more about tongue position than actual vowel sounds, although I think the vowel sound relates to tongue position, similar to whistling. Having my tongue in the position as if saying OOOH works better for me than tongue position as if saying AAAH. Still a concept as I'm sure our tongue position changes continually when we play.

I thought years of lecturing had made me immune to 'on-stage' nerves but playing in public is different. The underlying tension must manifest in my embouchure, throat and breathing hence the pinched tight tone.

I know, do more long and overtone practise.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I wonder if it's more about tongue position than actual vowel sounds,

I’m not sure tongue position is relevant, but that’s another thing I don’t think about.

 

[cappers]

I'm probably overthinking it as usual.
Thanks.

 

[lydian]

When you try to match the tone and timbre you hear, your mouth/tongue/throat do exactly what's needed to match that sound eventually. It's automatic. You shouldn't have to think about it. Just keep trying to match that sound and your body will do the rest. Thing is you have to change something when it doesn't match. Don't just keep doing the same thing. Kind of like turning the dial on a radio until it's perfectly tuned in. Trial and error turns to the left and right until you get it. Don't keep the dial in the same wrong spot and just fiddle with the volume. That doesn't work.

 

[cappers]

When you try to match the tone and timbre you hear, your mouth/tongue/throat do exactly what's needed to match that sound eventually. It's automatic. You shouldn't have to think about it.

Thanks @lydian
I have noticed recently that I'm more able to make micro adjustments to give the sound I want, without thinking about it.
The goal is to be able to do it consistently and efficiently 'under pressure'.
I'm sure I'll get it eventually!
Thanks all.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'm probably overthinking it as usual.

I hope I don’t appear as if I poopoo all the teacher advice you see on the internet, and I’m not disputing that the work thinking I’d tongue position may have some relevance. It’s just that I have never found it useful myself, so it’s not something I ever recommend.

I do however recommend some kinds of visualisations, which I’m sure others may think is voodoo.

However I do believe Ed Pillinger phd in which he showed via an artificial embouchure that oral cavity (which would include tongue position) makes no difference

I have noticed recently that I'm more able to make micro adjustments to give the sound I want, without thinking about it.

This is a real step in the right direction.

 

[cappers]

I do however recommend some kinds of visualisations, which I’m sure others may think is voodoo.

I have used your visualisation method and it helps.

It's not voodoo as visualisation creates neural patterns in the same way as if one had actually done those activities. Brain scans have shown that thinking or listening to music activates the same neural pathways as actual playing the music.

Refs: This Is Your Brain On Music; and, I Heard There Is A Secret Chord - Music As Medicine, both by Daniel Levitin.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It's not voodoo as visualisation creates neural patterns in the same way as if one had actually done those activities

Perhaps though it doesn’t work so well if a person thinks it’s voodoo. But for me thinking a sound as purple is better than thinking of a vowel sounds.

 

[cappers]

A well known online sax teacher (Jay Metcalf) suggests visualising playing the sax, imagining one's fingers pressing the keys whilst hearing the sound in one's head. A kind of active meditation.
Whatever works best for each person.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Having my tongue in the position as if saying OOOH works better for me than tongue position as if saying AAAH

The problem with this stuff (although many of us use the analogy) is that it differs with dialect.

 

[Pete Thomas]

imagining one's fingers pressing the keys whilst hearing the sound in one's head.

That may be mire to do with learning pitch. But can screw you if you switch between Eb and Bb.

 

[Targa]

The problem with this stuff (although many of us use the analogy) is that it differs with dialect.

Not only dialect, is AAAH a moment of realisation, doctor examining throat, a stab of pain ….

 

[cappers]

>Post deleted<

I am not going to post any more of my 'playing' until my tone and intonation have improved. I'm sure you have better things to do than listen to a learner's incremental development.
Thanks to all for your advice and encouragement to date.

 

[wakyct]

I hope I don’t appear as if I poopoo all the teacher advice you see on the internet, and I’m not disputing that the work thinking I’d tongue position may have some relevance. It’s just that I have never found it useful myself, so it’s not something I ever recommend

I think the funny thing about all this advice is it might be given by people who never learned this way. I'd guess most experienced players learned as kids over many years, and however they were explicitly taught now they can apply all of this didactic theory after the fact to explain what they did. But I think it would be hard to prove one way or another how they actually learned something.

 

[lydian]

I think the funny thing about all this advice is it might be given by people who never learned this way. I'd guess most experienced players learned as kids over many years, and however they were explicitly taught now they can apply all of this didactic theory after the fact to explain what they did. But I think it would be hard to prove one way or another how they actually learned something.

I know exactly what and how I learned. As a kid, I was taught by a clarinet player. Polar opposite embouchure and tone production techniques than what I figured out on my own for jazz sax. I never had any instruction in jazz tone production at all. So I can say without a doubt that listening to records, copying what I heard, and looking at pictures of the great players' embouchures on album covers and copying what I saw was THE way I developed a good sound. There was no other possible way. In fact, I had to unlearn what my clarinet player teacher taught me when playing jazz, and revert back when playing classical.

Would I have preferred to do it any other way? Actually not. My teacher prepared me for classical playing, taught me reading, fingerings, technique, rhythm, musicality, etc. It was a great education. By learning jazz tone and style on my own, I was free to do what my favorite players did rather than someone else's idea of the best tone or style. So I ended up sounding more like Brecker than say, Lester Young. Not that Lester didn't sound fantastic. But playing like Lester when I came up in the 70s didn't exactly open many doors.

 

[skeller047]

>Post deleted<

I am not going to post any more of my 'playing' until my tone and intonation have improved. I'm sure you have better things to do than listen to a learner's incremental development.
Thanks to all for your advice and encouragement to date.

Well I listened to it and thought about what to say for a minute then hit “quote and reply” and this is what came up 🙂. Timing is everything…

So I will add only that semi-famous mantra by Tomo Fujita:
Don’t Worry
Don’t Compare
Don’t Expect Too Fast
Be Kind To Yourself

What I was going to say is (well, I guess this lets the cat out of the bag, since I’m telling you anyway…. is it Heidinger’s cat in there?)

You might as you practice try to keep your air and sound more steady. Good air support, good embouchure, you know how to do that obviously, but it’s inconsistent from note to note. So the overall effect is choppy, and intonation goes on some notes. This is what makes it have that “beginner” sound. A steady airstream and some work on articulation will make a world of difference.

FWIW I do think your tone is better. And I can’t think that there is anything better to do than listen to someone who has dedicated themselves to the pursuit of music. You inspire me.

 

[wakyct]

When you try to match the tone and timbre you hear, your mouth/tongue/throat do exactly what's needed to match that sound eventually. It's automatic. You shouldn't have to think about it. Just keep trying to match that sound and your body will do the rest. Thing is you have to change something when it doesn't match. Don't just keep doing the same thing

When I said how they learned I meant specifics like "is my tongue at the roof of my mouth, or low in my mouth etc.". Like you say here you were focusing on the sound. Do you remember where your tongue was?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Do you remember where your tongue was?

I don't remember all the places my tongue has been

 

[mizmar]

😳