• New!

    Try our new Social Feeds, look out for the navigation icon: . You can now set default social feed view in your account preferences.

Saxophone beginners Come on now, join the band....(Beginners blog)

However I do believe Ed Pillinger phd in which he showed via an artificial embouchure that oral cavity (which would include tongue position) makes no difference
Yet I've seen some of the absolutely top players swear by it.

It's not something that I was super aware of until relatively recently - not to say that we haven't done some things automatically. My clarinet prof at college used to tell me that you can slightly sharpen a note by putting your tongue close in to the reed. Other than that, it was probably more about having an "open throat".

However, I've never really been able to instantly go from the very top of the horn to the very bottom like Brecker or Brandon Fields can (just two examples). Fields attributes it to tongue position - as he does when playing very extreme altissimo (with a thick sound too) - it's not just a jaw bite and air thing.
 
I know exactly what and how I learned. As a kid, I was taught by a clarinet player. Polar opposite embouchure and tone production techniques than what I figured out on my own for jazz sax. I never had any instruction in jazz tone production at all. So I can say without a doubt that listening to records, copying what I heard, and looking at pictures of the great players' embouchures on album covers and copying what I saw was THE way I developed a good sound. There was no other possible way. In fact, I had to unlearn what my clarinet player teacher taught me when playing jazz, and revert back when playing classical.

Would I have preferred to do it any other way? Actually not. My teacher prepared me for classical playing, taught me reading, fingerings, technique, rhythm, musicality, etc. It was a great education. By learning jazz tone and style on my own, I was free to do what my favorite players did rather than someone else's idea of the best tone or style. So I ended up sounding more like Brecker than say, Lester Young. Not that Lester didn't sound fantastic. But playing like Lester when I came up in the 70s didn't exactly open many doors.
My musical path has been very similar - except the sounding like Brecker bit.
 
You might as you practice try to keep your air and sound more steady. Good air support, good embouchure, you know how to do that obviously, but it’s inconsistent from note to note. So the overall effect is choppy, and intonation goes on some notes.
Thank you @skeller047 My teacher is away until September so grateful for the feedback.
I thought I was keeping a steady air flow with better articulation but obviously not.
I will add only that semi-famous mantra by Tomo Fujita:
Don’t Worry
Don’t Compare
Don’t Expect Too Fast
Be Kind To Yourself
I'm impatient and get frustrated with myself when I can't do something correctly! I've always achieved my goals in other areas so get irritated with my incompetence with the sax.

Going through a funny phase at the moment. I've got the basics but don't seem to be progressing, reached a plateau as it were. Not the first time, so will just plough on and hopefully get through it.

Onwards and upwards!
 
Had a short gig today at the same local council sponsored venue as before and had a decent sound set up and tech.
Posting this because I think my tone is beginning to improve and I was told that it sounded good by fellow players.
I know I still need more breath support and intonation control, but I do think (maybe erroneously) that there has been some improvement, less whiney and thin, better articulation.
Work in progress....comments welcomed!

View: https://soundcloud.com/cappers-491220656/260816_the-preacher_the?si=b11ac3e27b304ee6884202dffd3aec2c&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
View: https://soundcloud.com/cappers-491220656/260816_tenor-madness_the?si=3d9e37e4360244d59c321ace2894f1c2&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
 
Last edited:
The only reference I have to my tone is what I hear whilst playing and what I hear on recordings. But whenever I hear myself on recordings - not so much whilst playing - I think it's still poor. Examples above.

I just recieved another set of recordings of the same gig, another Zoom recorder but in a different part of the venue. The difference in overall sound and my playing is quite noticeable.

So do I sound better than I think? Do recordings on amatuer kit such as Zoom, phone, camera, alter the sound significantly? Akin to hearing one's voice on a recording...is that really me?!

Just pondering.......
 
The only reference I have to my tone is what I hear whilst playing and what I hear on recordings. But whenever I hear myself on recordings - not so much whilst playing - I think it's still poor. Examples above.

I just recieved another set of recordings of the same gig, another Zoom recorder but in a different part of the venue. The difference in overall sound and my playing is quite noticeable.

So do I sound better than I think? Do recordings on amatuer kit such as Zoom, phone, camera, alter the sound significantly? Akin to hearing one's voice on a recording...is that really me?!

Just pondering.......
Hi @cappers - I don’t know your situation, or where and how you practice, but if you have the capability to record yourself at home, this is one of the best ways to really examine things like tone and articulation.

I assume you have a computer. There are lots of threads about recording equipment, but I’d recommend the Universal Audio Volt interface and either Audio Technica (AT 2020) or R0de (NT1) for a mic. I know it’s fussy, and will take a bit to get set up - but the total cost is much less than another saxophone, or even a high end mouthpiece. It will give you a great window into your quest for tone and musical greatness.
 
I use a Zoom H2N to record myself at home, playing into a corner and keep the settings, location and distance as constant as possible.
I think there is an improvement recently but every gig recording set up and venue differs so I find it hard to determine my actual sound.
Probably worrying too much.
I think the recordings above show some improvement athough there's a long way to go.
Hearing and recognising my weaknesses is a geat impetus to carry on trying to improve.
 
I can't remember who made this comment here, it was some time ago, but they said that while making and listening to recordings of yourself is a good habit you are not really going to hear that much of a difference until you have a wide time span of recordings. My experience seems to bear this out as well.
 
Had a short gig today at the same local council sponsored venue as before and had a decent sound set up and tech.
Posting this because I think my tone is beginning to improve and I was told that it sounded good by fellow players.
I know I still need more breath support and intonation control, but I do think (maybe erroneously) that there has been some improvement, less whiney and thin, better articulation.
Work in progress....comments welcomed!

View: https://soundcloud.com/cappers-491220656/260816_the-preacher_the?si=b11ac3e27b304ee6884202dffd3aec2c&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
View: https://soundcloud.com/cappers-491220656/260816_tenor-madness_the?si=3d9e37e4360244d59c321ace2894f1c2&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

Hi @cappers, I honestly think that the main 'takeaway from your comment is that
"I think my tone is beginning to improve and I was told that it sounded good by fellow players". Only they listened to you playing live. And they are the best 'judges'.

W.r.t the 2 recordings, both the band's 'tone' (including yours) sounded to me very different.So I'm sure that you weren't playing a different 'tone' on both recordings!

The first recording - or post-processing - (of the band including you) emphasized the 'higher frequencies' . So the band's (and your) tone were 'thin' on the mid- and low tones.
The second recording - or post-processing - was the complete opposite, emphasizing the low- to mid-frequencies. So both the band and you were 'muffled' in the higher frequencies. It's no surprise that your 'tone' on this 2nd recording sounded very different to that on the 1st recording.

FWIW, I've spent many weeks trying to find the 'optimal' EQ curve for my Zoom (H6) recordings of my band's rehearsals. So that our 2 vocalists 'break through' the band. And also that our bass player, guitarists, keyboard player and 'horn section' are also clearly audible. It's difficult!

So with such a large difference between the band's (including your) 'tone' on the1st and 2nd recordings (or post-processing,) it may be worth finding out more about this difference.

Again, the comment "I think my tone is beginning to improve and I was told that it sounded good by fellow players" is by far the most important!
 
The guys set up the two Zooms (H2N) in different places - one near the front of the stage and one near the back of the audience on a 6ft high tripod. They trim the recordings and send the individual song files over. I don't think they do any post-recording processing. The venue was a marquee, open at one end.
Again, the comment "I think my tone is beginning to improve and I was told that it sounded good by fellow players" is by far the most important!
Thank you @MikeMorrell I wondered if they were just being kind and supportive!

I know it won't happen overnight. I need to relax a bit about it, I'm sure it will improve if I continue to practice diligently and attentively.

Another gig this Sunday to prepare for.
 
Fussing about recording quality is missing the forest for the trees. Regardless, you'll still get a really good snapshot of your tone and playing. My brutally honest critique is your tone is still weak, uncontrolled and lacks richness. You sound like a beginner, which is perfectly fine since you are a beginner. But definitely have work to do there. Your solo ideas don't seem to reflect an awareness of the chord changes. I listened to the first few seconds of The Preacher. That's a major triad over which you play 6 1 6 1 6 5 6. While a 6 is perfectly legit if you know how to use it, you seem to be picking random notes to play rather than trying to develop a melodic idea that is solidly rooted in the harmony. 3rds and 7ths (on chords that have 7ths) are a great way to outline the harmony so your solo makes melodic sense and sounds like it belongs in the song.
 
@lydian, I appreciate 'brutally honest critique'.

I'm aware of my weaknesses and am trying to address them.
I know how to improve my tone, intonation and control, and how to make my solos more harmonically correct, and will continue to work on them.

Just one thing, I'm not noodling 'random notes'. I hear my solo in my head which unfolds as the song progresses. I hear phrases, when to pause, repeat etc and in my mind how the music is flowing and what sounds 'right' (to me). Obviously not working!

I accept the importance of concentrating on the chord tones esp 3rds & 7ths - I only played a 5th in the first G and G7!

Thank you.
 
Try to do a DoD wipe of what's in your head, and try to fill it with some melodic ideas. 😜
Think about what to play, without using your horn, as your current instrument skill level, might be getting in the way of becoming melodic.
Pick a favorite easy tune and learn to play, and memorize a transcription, of something pretty.
This one, might have a transcription or slow it down.
Herbie, in his early flute days. 😱

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikRYT1hwfZE


Pick tunes that you know well.
Others:
Summertime
Autumn Leaves
etc etc
 
If anyone is taking lessons, with an accomplished musician, who is skilled at composition/improv, might be a good idea to spend time, learning to write out solos, based on a given theme, or even compose a melody, over some familiar changes.
$$$ well spent. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶
Not sure about what is taught during, composition courses at schools, these days. Check it out.

Manhattan Transfer, and other groups, learned/improved their harmonies/charts, by studying with someone that had those teachable skills.
Kids in school, struggling with published charts, improve when their teacher, writes the charts, based on their different skills levels.
Local middle school program sucked, until they got a competent maestro, then they were playing with the U of M jazz band.
 
After the drubbing I got for my last efforts I was hesitant to post this from yesterday's gig.
But I'm thick-skinned, determined, doing my best and criticism inspires me to improve.
I know my tone could be better but I think it sounds a bit less 'beginnerish' than previous efforts. I aimied to play around the chord tones to make it more melodic and harmonic, whether that worked or not you can judge.
I don't care if it is liked or not, I'm having fun and the MD and my band mates are happy with my progress.
260823_WC_Softly (solo)
 
Hi @cappers,

My apologies for this long post! I just hope parts of it help you in some way.

In my previous comment, I just remarked on the 'tonal differences' between Zoom recordings. Since then, you've had some great tips on developing solo's, your personal sax tone, etc. Let me just add my personal comments (as a community band amateur) to these:
- it's always good to listen to (and read) solo's to 'simple tunes'; just to find out what 'intervals' other people use in their solo's and (hopefully) why
- like you, I tend to make up solo's on the spot largely 'by ear' (knowing the tune and based on a 'grounding' of a solo that I've previously rehearsed - for better or worse!); for practice/rehearsals, I've often had to look up the 'chord changes' from the piano or guitar 'parts' and translate these back to my tenor sax 'solo' part.
- with 'rehearsal recordings, I can try out alternative 'solos' at home
- but for me, rehearsals are mainly where I try out new solo's or variations on solos that I've rehearsed before; sometimes they work, sometimes not, but I'm not afraid to 'experiment with' a solo during rehearsals' I continually learn from 'what works' and 'what doesn't work'
- I quickly abandoned 'written-out' solo's because they were either 'too difficult to play' or more usually 'didn't (comfortably) suit my sax playing style'; I've sometimes taken a 'written-out' solo and edited it to make it (for me) more comfortable to play; usually, I just make up an alternative
- part of what makes playing sax 'fun' for me is 'making up' (and developing) solo's; as you say, 'what's in your head'; yes, they need to have some kind of 'grounding' on what you've already practiced and rehearsed but 'on-the-fly' variations are fine by me!
- developing 'sax solos' over chord changes is for me (after 30 years) still an 'ongoing process'

For me, there a lot of positives to take away from your solos on The Preacher and Tenor Madness.
The Preacher: the style of your solo was very much in keeping with the backing style for this number (a kind of 1920's/1930's style); good phrasing, good articulation, good repetition of 'patterns' - and in tune!​
​
Tenor Madness - (seemingly)longer notes,(seemingly) less precise articulation, but again good phrasing, good repetition of 'patterns' - and in tune!​
​
In general (leaving aside things like breath control, intonation, etc.), my only suggestions are:
- see if you can make the 'gap' between 'phrases' a bit wider; there are a couple of places where you play a few 'bridging notes' between phrases; they're not essential and if you didn't play these, the 'gap' would be wider
- my impression was that you played the 'The Preacher' with more confidence than 'Tenor Madness', in which you sounded a bit more hesitant; in general, our MD would say that whoever plays any solo, should sound 'confident' (even if they don't feel it!); mainly in terms of 'volume' and 'projection' (preferably standing up); playing the 'right notes' matters less to the audience than 'projecting confidence during solos'. So that they 'stand out'. Audiences will sense (and hear) any hesitancy or uncertainty.
- a consequence is that you should only play solos during performances with which you're 100% confident of playing from memory or are 100% confident of improvising/adjusting/embellishing on the spot; 'thinking of the tune in your head' during performances does nothing to help you 'project confidence' during solos. Playing a solo that you know by heart (or are 100% confident of adjusting/embellishing this 'on-the- fly') does
- A further consequence is that you should only play solos with which you are 'comfortable' playing; not too challenging, no notes that you need to read, etc. Just stand up (or sit down) and let your perfect, confident, solos shine!

Best wishes,

Mike
​
 

Trending

Latest Song of the Month

Forum statistics

Topics
32,253
Messages
575,711
Members
8,079
Latest member
2065philippe
Back
Top Bottom