PPT mouthpieces

Saxophones Can you recommend a vintage Tenor?

That's a good answer and certainly covers your point of view. Unfortunately it still doesn't give respect to the OP as possibly knowing what they want. I respect that Mauriat has lots of different models as does TJ. Have I tried them all or remember the models of all the ones I tried? No. Are they vintage horns? NO, and neither is the Ref 54. That doesn't change. This is about specifics. The OP was specific. He didn't say I'm a beginner looking for advice about what horn to buy and maybe I'd like a vintage horn. Please advise me if vintage horns are a bad idea. You have presumed that they have no idea what a vintage horn is and should open up a search including modern horns. You have justified that well, but you're still not giving respect to the OP and what they have stated as their preference.

In the oddest of ways I agree with you, as I own (and have owned) a number of horns, vintage and modern. The tenors I play regularly are modern with Vintage type sound (R&C and Borgani). There is no disrespect intended towards your knowledge or opinion, we just need to give help that's asked for. In that respect several of us have already flagged that vintage horns are worn and may require an expensive rebuild.

OK, since 'specifics' seems to be the hill you want to die on...

The OP said " I am thinking along the lines of a vintage Tenor." - so that's specifics out of the window.

You claim the OP knows what he wants. "possibly a degree of character and vintage nostalgia". Again, not specific.

And finally "What recommendations/ advice could you offer please?

Now, I don't mind going out a limb here and saying (with the utmost respect) that the OP hasn't got much of a clue about vintage horns - or indeed any other kind of horns - and certainly has zero experience other than that afforded to them by the Yani 902. The latter was stated, the former is evident from the question - which was about as vague a request as I've ever seen (no biggie, we all have to start somewhere).
So in my opinion my recommendation is to try some of these 'halfway house' horns to see whether that 'possibly' is a path they really want to go down, and if so what direction it might take.

That's my professional position, and I'll stand by it. If you feel offended by someone tipping over your hobby horse, that's your problem and you'll have to find a way to deal with it on your own time.

If the OP wants specific details about the horns I mentioned, I'm sure they'll pipe up - and I'll be more than happy to help - but I'm through playing semantics with people who, very frankly, ought to know better.
 
OK, since 'specifics' seems to be the hill you want to die on...

The OP said " I am thinking along the lines of a vintage Tenor." - so that's specifics out of the window.

You claim the OP knows what he wants. "possibly a degree of character and vintage nostalgia". Again, not specific.

And finally "What recommendations/ advice could you offer please?

Now, I don't mind going out a limb here and saying (with the utmost respect) that the OP hasn't got much of a clue about vintage horns - or indeed any other kind of horns - and certainly has zero experience other than that afforded to them by the Yani 902. The latter was stated, the former is evident from the question - which was about as vague a request as I've ever seen (no biggie, we all have to start somewhere).
So in my opinion my recommendation is to try some of these 'halfway house' horns to see whether that 'possibly' is a path they really want to go down, and if so what direction it might take.

That's my professional position, and I'll stand by it. If you feel offended by someone tipping over your hobby horse, that's your problem and you'll have to find a way to deal with it on your own time.

If the OP wants specific details about the horns I mentioned, I'm sure they'll pipe up - and I'll be more than happy to help - but I'm through playing semantics with people who, very frankly, ought to know better.

You willingness to help is I'm sure genuine.
 
And at the risk of driving you to complete despair and further humbuggery I'm going to add the Hanson LX to my list of try-out horns. It's a Selmer MkVI copy - and while it doesn't quite capture the true essence of the marque, it gets pretty damn close. And at £2400 it's definitely worth a look. Review will be up in the next week or so.
Speaking from one professional to another, you occasionally choose to wade into waters of being offended at things which, really, are just par for the course in Forum conversation. In instances such as this, you have a tendency to reply with swipes.
Given your reputation online, and the fact that I regard you highly (although I don't always agree with you and am willing to state that publicly)....there's no particular need for you to respond with snark, nor does it reflect particularly well, IMHO.


You willingness to help is I'm sure genuine.
I concur, I am certain it is.

But simply - the guy wants a vintage horn...there are at least two dozen great vintage horn models out there, readily available.

To suggest a current, contemporary model is a bit of a detour from the OP's inquiry, is all.

There are a lot of surprisingly good, contemporary sax models out there nowadays. For someone seeking a second contemporary horn.
It befuddles me why this is causing some sort of friction.
 
There is no disrespect intended towards your knowledge or opinion, we just need to give help that's asked for. In that respect several of us have already flagged that vintage horns are worn and may require an expensive rebuild.
Precisely. It has been noted by others here that there are certain dynamics involved when purchasing a vntage horn which should be considered. Those dynamics are quite manageable, however.
The only time people get 'stung' is when they have rushed into a purchase without consideration of these factors.

The 'don't buy old, it will have problems and be costly to fix' argument is one which is....ersatz, in a sense.
Or, more specifically....it applies to some, but not to others.

Several Rx's to that situation were mentioned earlier. As the OP apparently has a decent budget (he had perhaps considered a VI at one point), acquiring a Vintage horn in good tack seems within his budgetary ability.

Redux:

Buy one that has been professionally refurbed.
Buy one which seller guarantees to be in play condition or they will take it back.
Or buy one which isn't - and set aside adequate funds to have your own tech put it into good play condition.
 
The 2 great paradoxes in saxophone world ... that almost everyone agrees....
a) There's nothing you can't do with a modern horn.
b) There's no modern horn like a 10m or a Mk6.

:D
 
Anyway back on subject.
Pooleman.
Before you go for a +50 year old sax, I’d advise a day trip to sax.co.uk with your yani to try out some mouthpieces. They are pretty decent people and wont mind you spending the day there In their playing rooms. If your going to the one near London Bridge, the pub almost next door does some lovely beer.
if you’re willing to spend between 300-500 there are some incredible mouthpieces that will transform the playability and tone of your Yani. The 10MFANs tend towards a vintage sound. Theo Wayne has a few too including the hard rubber gaia. There are others too.
i don’t seek you to deter you but if you insist on another horn, try out the saxes, both those that appeal and those that don’t, at sax.co.uk.
 
If you want to try vintage horns, although from Poole it’s a long way and probably an over nighter, go to Woodwind Exchange in Bradford, although they are still closed at the moment, I think, and have a ball. I got my super20 there and had a choice of 5, plus a 10M and a Martin.

The advice to try them out is spot on, out of the 5 Kings, plus one I tried in Leeds, I wouldn’t have bought any of the others as the difference was dramatic. After you’ve tried them you’ll know if you want one and they also have modern horns.

You can check inventory with them before deciding to head up there just to be sure.
 
What you said is so true. Many vintage saxes have variation. Also some of them are not well maintained as they should be. This could be really misleading.

I would always want to try a vintage tenor AND Have my tech see it for things we players don't understand.

Some times a vintage sax can be a dream come true.... But sometimes ... It can be serious trouble. :)

That said I'm a vintage horns guy that enjoys as much some nice modern ones.
 
Apologies: I'm replying from p. 2, prior to reading 3 & 4. If somebody's already said this, then I'm just reiterating/seconding:

The ocean of what's out there is vast, but it quickly narrows once one knows what your goals are.

What do you want to sound like? Do you have a favorite player and how does that person's sound and style relate to what you want to accomplish yourself?

What music interests you most?

Are there particular parts of the horn that you want to do certain things?

Is there a budgetary limit?

The possibilities are so wide and vast that it is better to start from your goals rather than from a survey of what's out there, because that can fill a novel (by Tolstoy).
 
Interesting comments. I find it funny that you'd think that bent lkeycups, off center keycups, etc came out of the factory like that, however (?) We are talking about a 40-50+ year old instrument; even if the finish is in good shape, to ascertain that what you had in your hands was literally 'as it was when new' is a stretch. If someone told me "this is just as it was when it was brand new" - on a 50- year old horn....I would find that claim very specious. We can never know this. Even if it was a supposed 'closet queen'.

I, for example, have refurbed plenty of Indianas which looked like they had been through two wars, and back....yet as a rule displayed no 'bent keycups', off center cups, key play, or the things which you note. Yet they had clearly been played in the trenches for decades and decades

FWIW, they are arguably my best selling vintage model, I'd say I have sold more of these than any other model and I have never had a displeased client; which is why I am perhaps challenging some of your comments here. IMHO they basically give you everything which Martin was famous for, for a fraction of the cost of a Committee, and in some aspects I find they actually exceed the III, which was supposedly their 'flagship' model.

Not to digress the thread, too much. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
I have always wanted to find an Indiana with the Indian engraving in good cosmetic and playing condition but they are as rare in Spain as hen's teeth and then when you find one it's like 1000 euros which is too much IMO.
 
@Pooleman

I have not yet seen in this thread what genre you like to play. You made an association to old cars that you might take out on the weekend. Well, what’s your idea of a weekend pleasure? A sedate drive down a lane, or a rip along the coast?

Buescher TrueTone vs Big B vs TH&C - all are lovely for what they do, but the TH&C is the one that’ll let loose and play with the most abandon. That’s not to say it’s for you, but I sure enjoyed mine. Similarly the King Super 20.

As with most queries, the more information you share, the better quality answers you’ll receive. Else, everyone will just pile in with their favorites (as I did) with little knowledge of whether it is any help to you.

G’luck with your Quest!

George
 
I have always wanted to find an Indiana with the Indian engraving in good cosmetic and playing condition but they are as rare in Spain as hen's teeth and then when you find one it's like 1000 euros which is too much IMO.

The Indianas are great horns, but are purposely not a Com II or III so that there is an upgrade factor. One of the most noticeable deficiencies is that the table B,Bb, and C# don't operate the G#, so if going from one of those to G# you've got to quickly make it over to the G#. They pretty much sound the same though and should be cheaper, but it's a matter of demand. We aren't the only people who know how good these sound and have been much cheaper than other vintage horns, so the demand has gone up for the limited supply = more expensive. Will they go down again as the market gets continually flooded with cheaper Asian horns? Pretty hard to second guess, but if tone matters (as it does to some of us) more than great ergonomics, then they may continue to go up in value.

A long while ago when I was looking for my first tenor I tried Bueschers, Conn 10M, Kings, Selmer VI, Yamaha, Yanagisawa, and a few other odd bods. The Martin Com III was by far the best value for $$ with plenty of guts and a tone that (for me) beat all the others...especially the way overpriced Selmers. Please no hate mail over that. If you love the Selmer VI sound then that's great for you, especially if you can afford it.
 
Having read through this thread I noticed that most, if not all, prices given are in dollars, American horns in the UK go for a lot more, you can’t even rely on a pound for dollar comparison, you are also paying a premium for scarcity.

A good Super 20 will cost around £4000, a Conn 10m around £2000 and climbing, Buescher Top Hat and Cane over £3000. Martins are a bit cheaper, and wonderful horns, but they are starting to creep up.

There are good deals to be had, apparently, but horns from dealers like Woodwind Exchange, Howarth and Headwind are nothing like the prices quoted in the States. You do, however, get a fully serviced and set up horn, and you can try it beforehand, at least in better times. Headwind, which is my current favourite shop, have a regularly changing selection of ‘vintage’ horns and I believe they are presently offering two week trials, and possibly free delivery. I’m not sure it’s the best way to try out saxophones but it’s there.I think Woodwind Exchange may be closed for some time yet but you can call them. Rupert Noble in West Worthing is also a very good option
 
Having read through this thread I noticed that most, if not all, prices given are in dollars, American horns in the UK go for a lot more, you can’t even rely on a pound for dollar comparison, you are also paying a premium for scarcity.

A good Super 20 will cost around £4000, a Conn 10m around £2000 and climbing, Buescher Top Hat and Cane over £3000. Martins are a bit cheaper, and wonderful horns, but they are starting to creep up.

There are good deals to be had, apparently, but horns from dealers like Woodwind Exchange, Howarth and Headwind are nothing like the prices quoted in the States. You do, however, get a fully serviced and set up horn, and you can try it beforehand, at least in better times. Headwind, which is my current favourite shop, have a regularly changing selection of ‘vintage’ horns and I believe they are presently offering two week trials, and possibly free delivery. I’m not sure it’s the best way to try out saxophones but it’s there.I think Woodwind Exchange may be closed for some time yet but you can call them. Rupert Noble in West Worthing is also a very good option

The prices would be higher if buying from US dealers too. My Super 20 was $5500 (full pearls, 95%+ original lacquer, recently overhauled by Aaron Barnard) from a dealer, and I was fortunate to get the same when I sold it a couple years later. I wasn’t looking to make an “investment”, and was lucky that it appealed to others as much as it did to me.

See BarnardRepair.com for King tenors. I think mine is still in the gallery, s/n 320xxx.


If you want to compare other dealer prices and availability, Gayle at VintageSax.com is another great dealer with whom I have bought and traded.
 
The prices would be higher if buying from US dealers too. My Super 20 was $5500 (full pearls, 95%+ original lacquer, recently overhauled by Aaron Barnard) from a dealer, and I was fortunate to get the same when I sold it a couple years later. I wasn’t looking to make an “investment”, and was lucky that it appealed to others as much as it did to me.

See BarnardRepair.com for King tenors. I think mine is still in the gallery, s/n 320xxx.


If you want to compare other dealer prices and availability, Gayle at VintageSax.com is another great dealer with whom I have bought and traded.
A full pearls Super 20 could be something like that price in pounds but almost certainly a chunk more if the lacquer was 95%. I was thinking of a series 3 with reasonable loss of lacquer, you can get later ones for less or ones like yours for more.
 
A full pearls Super 20 could be something like that price in pounds but almost certainly a chunk more if the lacquer was 95%. I was thinking of a series 3 with reasonable loss of lacquer, you can get later ones for less or ones like yours for more.

I am certain that an equally great classic tenor made in the UK would be exorbitantly expensive in the US.
 
I am certain that an equally great classic tenor made in the UK would be exorbitantly expensive in the US.
Shame there never was such a thing (I’ll just duck for a minute while people lob examples at me) we could be in hog heaven. I don’t know how Mark VIs compare price wise either side of the Atlantic as I’ve never been all that interested, they’re just stupid prices everywhere, but I think it’s at least partly to do with the relative scarceness of US horns, you seem to be awash with them over there, and they do seem to be getting more expensive here of late when you can track one down. Maybe it’s a fashion thing as well.
 
Shame there never was such a thing...
Hence the price commensurate with its rarity!

FWIW, having gone down the vintage Selmer and vintage American horn path for some time, I now play Borgani Jubilee horns in S/A/T. For me, they meet the target of vintage tone meets modern ergos and mechanism challenge. Being made in Italy (although in limited production of ~300/year), they may be more available at better prices on your side of the pond.
 
Back
Top Bottom