Saxophones C Melody Saxophones

[LostCircuits]

Nice work! I have tons of pictures of c-Mel and c-sop (Buescher, York, Conn, Holton, Martin - Wurlitzer), just in case you need any additional pics.

 

[turf3]

I think it would be well to more clearly explain the difference between Selmer USA and Selmer Paris.

 

[LostCircuits]

Or York and Selmer New York. But, good point because I was approached by somebody with the Selmer USA C-Mel who thought it was a Paris make. He was asking $3k but a little education ....

 

[Greychatter]

Agreed, folks. I think we've all seen online queries and auction listings by hopeful "Selmer" owners. In the link below I've drafted a separate module to replace the existing text in the C Melody doc. This tries to elaborate a little on the "Selmer" story. I'm not personally a Selmer expert (except for my childhood '68 Bundy by Selmer), so feedback is welcome.

 

[PigSquealer]

Anyone have a Selmer New York C besides me ? This was abandoned at a friend’s place. Was passed to me.

 

[PigSquealer]

I hope the Buescher serial numbers are the same.
This picture below from January 1922. H & A Selmer catalog has some good information.

1922 Selmer's Bulletin Vol I No 11 | Saxophone.org

Saxophone.org - created by saxophone players for saxophone players. Features an active saxophone forum, buy sell trade your sax, saxophone museum, sax teachers and more.

www.saxophone.org

I find the above information interesting. Thin firm pressed wool felt pads made in France. Lite impression to prevent sticking or sagging pads. C Melody with snappy precision action that stays regulated. Venting on right hand stack at 5/16”. Drawn tone holes on the body. Yep, just like above….just the body. That bell socket looks soldered on.
C tenon finish F $157.50, case $12.50, mouthpiece lig cap $6.50-$12.00, neck strap ? $180 plus 5% tax,$9
Out the at $189. A Ford model A was $350.

Mr Martness below was doing well with two addresses in Spring of 1922. Being on opposite coasts he travelled too.
The store wasn’t doing poorly either. Custom printed invoice. They had a typewriter and a “Paid” stamp with changeable date. I wonder who owns this now ?

 

[PigSquealer]

Orginal records can be listened to on YouTube.

 

[mark_addy]

Interesting that Buescher made it. I have a mid 20s TT alto here - feet on posts, banding around body and bell, LH pinky keys etc look the same, engraving is a similar style. Bell key holes on mine are drawn. So Buescher had a relationship with Selmer-America right at the start, as well as right at the end.

 

[Greychatter]

I make mine to be around 1920 give or take a couple of years. I'm not that familiar with Bueschers though. In "as found" condition.

 

[LostCircuits]

Just a word on the HP/LP issue. Your point is very valid but when you say "modern instruments" keep in mind that especially "modern instruments" like keyboards have features to transpose and shift the pitch or tuning to whatever you want them to be. And string instruments, there is really an inherent sliding scale for their tuning. So what it really comes down to is "Who are you playing with?"
Ok, you go to a jam and you'll be lost.
You play with other "fixed pitch" instruments, fugeddaboudit ...
You play with some acoustic guitar / mandolin / bass / whatever in a small ensemble and there is no reason why it can't be made to work.

In other words, don't throw out the baby with the bath, it's a matter of communication with the other musicians.

 

[Woodpad]

I know next to nothing about early Buescher mpcs... anxious to hear your thoughts @PigSquealer.

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Could be a Rascher mouthpiece.

Short ecplanation from Rascher mouthpieces:
Sometime after the Buescher Manufacturing Company was taken over by Selmer in the mid-1960s, it was no longer possible to purchase newly-made large chamber mouthpieces. In an effort to restore the original sound of the saxophone, Sigurd Raschèr established the Rascher Mouthpiece Company and worked closely with mouthpiece makers JJ Babbitt in Elkhart, Indiana to continue to make these special mouthpieces available.

 

[turf3]

Just a word on the HP/LP issue. Your point is very valid but when you say "modern instruments" keep in mind that especially "modern instruments" like keyboards have features to transpose and shift the pitch or tuning to whatever you want them to be. And string instruments, there is really an inherent sliding scale for their tuning. So what it really comes down to is "Who are you playing with?"
Ok, you go to a jam and you'll be lost.
You play with other "fixed pitch" instruments, fugeddaboudit ...
You play with some acoustic guitar / mandolin / bass / whatever in a small ensemble and there is no reason why it can't be made to work.

In other words, don't throw out the baby with the bath, it's a matter of communication with the other musicians.

Well, no.

You find an HP instrument, it's 95+ years old and has been unusable in any ensemble for the past 90 years. That means 90+ year old pads, corks etc. , keys that haven't moved in 90 years so they're probably frozen solid, no oiling in 90 years so it's going to be one heck of a job to get them out, 90 years worth of mold and mouse poop in the 90 year old case built to fit a horn for which you can't buy a properly fitting replacement case. You can't play with any other wins instrument, they can't push in enough or pull out enough. String instrument players with quality instruments are not going to want to tune UP to meet you and increase the tension on their instruments.

It makes zero sense. Put the time and effort into a low pitch horn. High pitch saxophones are obsolete, period.

 

[turf3]

Interesting that Buescher made it. I have a mid 20s TT alto here - feet on posts, banding around body and bell, LH pinky keys etc look the same, engraving is a similar style. Bell key holes on mine are drawn. So Buescher had a relationship with Selmer-America right at the start, as well as right at the end.

Selmer USA bought horns from several manufacturers and labeled them "Selmer XXX" at various times. "Selmer Pennsylvania", "Selmer New York", "Selmer USA" and probably some other labels. I know some are Conns and some are Bueschers; I wouldn't be surprised to find Kings Martins or even Yorks.

From what I've read there was a lot of interlocking directorates and a lot of employee back and forth at Elkhart, as one would expect in a relatively small industry in a small geographical area.

 

[LostCircuits]

Well, no.

You find an HP instrument, it's 95+ years old and has been unusable in any ensemble for the past 90 years. That means 90+ year old pads, corks etc. , keys that haven't moved in 90 years so they're probably frozen solid, no oiling in 90 years so it's going to be one heck of a job to get them out, 90 years worth of mold and mouse poop in the 90 year old case built to fit a horn for which you can't buy a properly fitting replacement case. You can't play with any other wins instrument, they can't push in enough or pull out enough. String instrument players with quality instruments are not going to want to tune UP to meet you and increase the tension on their instruments.

It makes zero sense. Put the time and effort into a low pitch horn. High pitch saxophones are obsolete, period.

Respectfully, that doesn't make any sense, guitar players use custom tunings all the time, or else change string gauge, which puts far more differential tension on the instrument than tuning up 1/4 step.

Yes some HP instruments fit the category you describe but I am talking about playable instruments that were not subjected to the stink of mainstream wisdom. I know for a fact that, despite its archaic keywork, my 1898 Conn is one of the most sought after instruments within the "general community of visitors to my house" and believe it or not, the HP label has not discouraged anybody from borrowing it. Of course, I am talking about professional musicians but that actually underscores my point.
And no, there is no replacement case needed, I have a case that works.

Ok, I was offered (for free) a gorgeous upright piano made for A=432 Hz and the piano tuner was afraid of bringing it up to 440 because of fear of damaging the frame but that's an altogether different story.

Yes, SRV tuned his guitar down to accommodate the heavy strings but that was playability rather than fear of warping the neck. Just in case you wondered

 

[PigSquealer]

Selmer USA bought horns from several manufacturers and labeled them "Selmer XXX" at various times. "Selmer Pennsylvania", "Selmer New York", "Selmer USA" and probably some other labels. I know some are Conns and some are Bueschers; I wouldn't be surprised to find Kings Martins or even Yorks.

Yes true, but what years / time era to the various Selmer XXX name(s) used? Honestly the Selmer New York or the variants are highly under researched. This subject is worthy of a thread subject all alone.
For the most part I think this current review/ discussion(s) pertains to the early years. Establishing the distinction between H&A Selmer New York(USA) and H. Selmer Paris. Then observations on early Selmer New York C Melody build characteristics. Not S,A,T,B. This to discover and identify the true maker. My observations of Selmer New York C melodies pre 1923 using Buescher SN# dating and marking, built traits. All align with Buescher. I’ll be the first to admit I could be completely wrong.

From what I've read there was a lot of interlocking directorates and a lot of employee back and forth at Elkhart, as one would expect in a relatively small industry in a small geographical area.

This statement is insanely accurate and not limited to Elkhart. Like Frank Holton and Ernst A. Couturier
both worked for J.W. York at one time.
Selmer….

 

[turf3]

Respectfully, that doesn't make any sense, guitar players use custom tunings all the time, or else change string gauge, which puts far more differential tension on the instrument than tuning up 1/4 step.

Yes some HP instruments fit the category you describe but I am talking about playable instruments that were not subjected to the stink of mainstream wisdom. I know for a fact that, despite its archaic keywork, my 1898 Conn is one of the most sought after instruments within the "general community of visitors to my house" and believe it or not, the HP label has not discouraged anybody from borrowing it. Of course, I am talking about professional musicians but that actually underscores my point.
And no, there is no replacement case needed, I have a case that works.

Ok, I was offered (for free) a gorgeous upright piano made for A=432 Hz and the piano tuner was afraid of bringing it up to 440 because of fear of damaging the frame but that's an altogether different story.

Yes, SRV tuned his guitar down to accommodate the heavy strings but that was playability rather than fear of warping the neck. Just in case you wondered

Well, slabs are one thing, but Lester Flatt used to go through about one Martin a year because he liked to tune high. How about those violin E strings?

Anyway, you go right on ahead making everyone tune way high just to suit your horn; I and the vast majority of saxophone players are going to stick with worldwide standard tuning.

 

[LostCircuits]

They will but like they say, a trillion flies like poop, does that make a valid point?

 

[PigSquealer]

Those whom observe and try to make old instruments /things work well /achieved in refinement of the era…. Be it an automobile, a can opener or sax. You should respect those people who came before you. They tried their best, information IMHO was limited.
Today those…..the…..Current few… those who have interest to do so. The level of achievement to level of ability.
Often records(written notes) / recordings , film or technology of the time. All has been but entirely lost.
This working any old H.P…..or old any musical instrument to an environment to play on stage well….I truly embrace.


Honestly. I don’t see any player these days who(m) are knowledgeable/ instrested about an instrument in H.P. OR any old pitch of playing.….are, Well….. Walking into an uncomfortable situation.

 

[mark_addy]

I'm sure it is well-known here, but I didn't know it and I just looked it up - Pat. Dec 8 1914 seems to refer to a bloke called Haynes and some pictures of drawn tone holes on a flute. That caught on pretty quick; my 1918 Conn Baritone has the same attribution (and tone holes!).

 

[mark_addy]

Honestly. I don’t see any player these days who(m) are knowledgeable/ instrested about an instrument in H.P. OR any old pitch of playing.….are, Well….. Walking into an uncomfortable situation.

I have a HP English Harmonium (they blow, whereas American reed organs (ahem) suck) from the 1860s which I loosely 'restored' - that is, it sort-of works, whereas it sort-of didn't. When my kids move out I might have space to have another go at it and fix the sticky keys. I only own it because the previous owner threatened to burn it if I didn't take it on (he's long gone, but he saw himself in me because I am pretty sure he acquired it decades earlier in similar circumstances). I can play a few hymns but only in C or Am. I tried to give it to someone earlier this year and my elder daughter (who plays a bit of piano accordion) got the hump, which means she _wants_ it one day. Imagine! 🙂