Are transcriptions covered by copyright?

[jools]

I guess that this is a question for you Pete, but I figured it might have some public interest.

If someone wrote down a transcription of a sax solo, could they then sell that as their own copyright?

Not that I'm capable of doing it myself (nor could be bothered) but I am aware that there are some books widely available where the author ascertains his or her own 'ownership' of the material, regardless of it's audio origin. How does that work? And as recording sax players, are our own works open to this kind of 'back-door theft'?

 

[Simon]

Nope. That'd be illegal - it's not your 'intellectual property'.

Sorta like the thief that catches another nicking his stuff -
"Ere mate, that stuffs been nicked already!"

Turn it around - you played a solo, had plans to write a book of your music one day and make some dosh, and someone beats you to it using your own solos! 🙂 or 🙁 ?

Chord progressions are 'uncopyrightable'. Performing the actual solo would be 'uncopyrightable'. Making money outta selling someone else's work and claiming no-one else can use your transcription... yeah right.

Simon

PS As a sheetmusic seller, I'd be happy to accept a list of the titles that you reckon are infringing copyright. Better yet, the 'ownership' owners details.

Jools wrote:
I guess that this is a question for you Pete, but I figured it might have some public interest.

If someone wrote down a transcription of a sax solo, could they then sell that as their own copyright?

Not that I'm capable of doing it myself (nor could be bothered) but I am aware that there are some books widely available where the author ascertains his or her own 'ownership' of the material, regardless of it's audio origin. How does that work? And as recording sax players, are our own works open to this kind of 'back-door theft'?

 

[Pete Thomas]

I may be wrong, but I believe the copyright would be owned by the improviser or the composer of the original tune. If you play Misty and improvise on it, the copyright of the entire composition plus impro belongs to Erroll Garner.

But there is no copyright in a chord sequence, so if you just play the chords from Misty and invent a new head or just improvise on the chords, then you own the copyright in that composition.

 

[jools]

But Pete, then what happens if your improvisation of Misty gets transcribed by someone - who owns that piece of paper -do they then have the right to sell it to someone else?

It's a bit like taking a photograph of a celebrity isn't it? - the photographer owns the copyright to the photograph. Not the person it it.


(just jumping back in with an edit Simon)

Case in point:
"Jazz Masters, Vol 81. Charlie Parker" By Stuart Isacoff. Consolidated Music Publishers. 1978. ISBN 0-8256-4081-4. It's a book that contains the improvisations only and NOT the head melodies.

No mention is made to Dial, Savoy, The Estate of C. Parker, or any of the other recording organisations that published the original recordings. Copyright in this book is firmly placed with Consolidated Music Publishers.

! - ?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Jools wrote:
But Pete, then what happens if your improvisation of Misty gets transcribed by someone - who owns that piece of paper -do they then have the right to sell it to someone else?

I believe it would be owned by Erroll Garner.

I think people who transcribe assume they have a copyright and very often it's not tested because it's a such a small deal.

I think it would be good idea to ask on this copyright forum as there may be some more informed people there. If you do ask on there, let us know as I think it's a quite an ineteresting topic with possibly some grey areas.

 

[Simon]

Jools - there's no money in what you're proposing, that's why no-one would bother. Legally it's probably a grey area - as soon as you mention 'sell it to someone else' don't alarm bells start ringing to you?

I list dozens of transcription sites that offer FREE transcribed solos on the Good Oil. If you made a transcription to sell, someone else would make it available for free from their site.

From a sheet music seller's POV, the future of selling transcriptions is limited - there just isn't a market, esp in non-mainstream music eg jazz improv.

Ethically - refer to previous point about you making money from someone else's work.

Jools wrote:
But Pete, then what happens if your improvisation of Misty gets transcribed by someone - who owns that piece of paper -do they then have the right to sell it to someone else?

It's a bit like taking a photograph of a celebrity isn't it? - the photographer owns the copyright to the photograph. Not the person it it.

So Stuart is the editor of a collection of transcriptions published by CMP, who will have sort copyright clearance from the copyright holders of each of the tunes before the book could be printed.

Ditto 'performing rights', ditto 'mechanical rights'.

Need more examples Jools... those are legit.

Simon

(just jumping back in with an edit Simon)

Case in point:
"Jazz Masters, Vol 81. Charlie Parker" By Stuart Isacoff. Consolidated Music Publishers. 1978. ISBN 0-8256-4081-4. It's a book that contains the improvisations only and NOT the head melodies.

No mention is made to Dial, Savoy, The Estate of C. Parker, or any of the other recording organisations that published the original recordings. Copyright in this book is firmly placed with Consolidated Music Publishers.

! - ?

 

[jools]

Hmm. Simon - it is, you must agree, a fascinating topic.

Ok guys, the 'meat' of my question... (and one which I think could affect a lot of the forum readers)...

1. If "ONE WAS TO" transcribe your solo (or anybody's for that matter) is that breaking the copyright law?

2. If "ONE" then goes on to learn that solo and perform it (possibly in a different context) in public, is that breaking the copyright law?

3. if "ONES" performance gets recorded (with your solo) is that breaking the copyright law?

E.G. - another case in point:
Chaka Khan's vocal version of "Night in Tunisia". At the famous "Great Alto Break" between the verse and the solos section, the keyboard player plays the entire Charlie Parker, four bar run - note for note.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Jools wrote:
1. If I transcribe your solo (or anybody's for that matter) am I breaking the copyright law?

2. If I then go on to learn that solo and perform it (possibly in a different context) in public, am I breaking the copyright law?

3. if my performance gets recorded (with your solo) is that breaking the copyright law?

If the solo is published, ie there is a recording, then the same lawa would apply as with "covering" any composition. You can do a cover version, but only if its been recorded or you got permission.

I believe making a transcription, or arrangement, for yourself is legal. If not in the actual law, then by precedent.

However these are very complex and in many cases archaic laws. "Copyright" means the right to make copies of.

 

[Simon]

Yep... I think my 'fascination' for this topic just ended. Are you talking about selling these transcriptions or not?

If you are, howsabout emailing good ol' Curtis at www.saxsolos.com and asking him all these questions of copyright? Then ask him if business is busy... :whistle:

To cover all your questions, ask yourself - "Who would be making the money and subsequently attending court, in the unlikely event it got the attention of the general public and you made any money from it"? At that stage, 'copyright infringement' would be the least of your worries... "Hello I'm from the IRD. What's your tax code?"

If you're not, I'd recommend spending this time transcribing for your own musical development, rather than worrying about someone buying it off you and the legal implications of that.

Good luck with whatever you may or may not be transcribing.

Simon

Jools wrote:
Hmm. Simon - it is, you must agree, a fascinating topic.

Ok guys, the 'meat' of my question... (and one which I think could affect a lot of the forum readers)...

1. If I transcribe your solo (or anybody's for that matter) am I breaking the copyright law?

2. If I then go on to learn that solo and perform it (possibly in a different context) in public, am I breaking the copyright law?

3. if my performance gets recorded (with your solo) is that breaking the copyright law?

E.G. - another case in point:
Chaka Khan's vocal version of "Night in Tunisia". At the famous "Great Alto Break" between the verse and the solos section, the keyboard player plays the entire Charlie Parker, four bar run - note for note.

Hmmmmmmm. eeenteresting.


(Pete- I have joined "copyrightaid". When I get a chance, I'll word a coherent version of this conversation and see what they say. Bit busy at the mo)

[/quote]

 

[jools]

Simon, Pete - point taken.

"I believe making a transcription, or arrangement, for yourself is legal. If not in the actual law, then by precedent. "

I suspect then, that in the dim light of the law, this would perhaps be covered under "fair dealing" in the section which says part of an original "may be copied for such things as..." - which also includes 'educational study'.

In other words, it's the originators 'intent' that is in question here, and that of any subsequent owner of such said copy.

A few things brought this to my attention. The first was the many threads on the forum openly encouraging players to transcribe recordings, and the second was the brief discussion about The Real Book.

Now, from what I understand about its history, The Real Book was initially conceived and created by Steve Swallow whilst he was a student. Basically: a private notebook of the standards, written out in an easy to follow 'lead sheet' style. His original copy started to change hands round Berkely, and then further afield til eventually people started making them into books and eventually selling them. A collective effort. (is that a true representation of the story? I'm not entirely sure)

Similarly, Jamey Aebersold wrote out a huge collection of Charlie Parker solos and original tunes for his own degree work, which very quickly became a published book as The Omnibook. (again...is that a true representation of the story?)

The Real Book (original xerox version)= illegal.
The Omnibook= Legal

For forum members who wish to transcribe any music, I am still confused as to what the position would be.

 

[jools]

Simon - you are totally misunderstanding my enquiry!

It's a HYPOTHETICAL scenario... based various advice being given on this forum.

"Are you talking about selling these transcriptions or not?"
- Not. I don't have any.

But working for a music publishing organisation, I do have artists for whom this might be a concern.

 

[Simon]

Whoa.. now I'm interested again. Which music publishing organisation do you work for???

Simon

Jools wrote:
Simon - you are totally misunderstanding my enquiry!

It's a HYPOTHETICAL scenario... based various advice being given on this forum.

"Are you talking about selling these transcriptions or not?"
- Not. I don't have any.

But working for a music publishing organisation, I do have artists for whom this might be a concern.

 

[jools]

It's: Koosh Records

We haven't been going long, and are still in the learning process. All the bands and artists we work with are creating original material. Ultimately, we are looking to protecting their property when it comes on line. I need to know the answers to questions like these - as they are the sorts of questions I get asked!. Therefore, we are also looking for a publishing agent.

(sorry if I'd worded the previous posts wrongly. I've gone back and corrected. Damn! I wish I was talented enough to transcribe stuff. I only ever did one and it took me a month. Then it was in the wrong key)

 

[Pete Thomas]

Jools

You only need a publishing agent if and when the records are released by a licensed label overseas. (e.g sub publisher one a small percentage for collection only rather than full publishing with exploitation of work responsibilities).

 

[Simon]

Ok, now I understand from which angle you coming from. I thought you were a hobby saxophonist wondering if he could sell off his transcriptions. You're actually wondering about protecting artists rights from the point of view of an agent.

That's a bit outside the scope of this forum I would've thought. You'd need legal advice, Pete's experienced notwithstanding.

Simon

Jools wrote:
Simon - you are totally misunderstanding my enquiry!

It's a HYPOTHETICAL scenario... based various advice being given on this forum.

"Are you talking about selling these transcriptions or not?"
- Not. I don't have any.

But working for a music publishing organisation, I do have artists for whom this might be a concern.

 

[Mikec]

If you went to a poetry reading, copied down the poems and then tried to sell them, you'd be well and truly illegal, wouldn't you? But if you wrote them down for your own private use, it's OK. Isn't it the same with transcribing music?

Just to pick up a small point Jools, someone playing a Charlie Parker piece either in part or in full, in public, is fine if they are either in a licensed venue or have permission from the copyright holder, surely?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Mikec wrote:
Just to pick up a small point Jools, someone playing a Charlie Parker piece either in part or in full, in public, is fine if they are either in a licensed venue or have permission from the copyright holder, surely?

Yes, you can play or record any piece of music that is already recorded without special permission, although the law regarding recording would stop you if you are doing a parody, setting in medley etc in which case you need permission from the copyright holder.

 

[Simon]

Hi Mike,

I think the key point here that keeps getting sidelined is - is there money changing hands as a result of performing / transcribing / decanting / etc someone else's intellectual property ?

If yes, and you're going public, expect legal (and tax) scrutiny.

Seems that as soon as money is involved, questions of 'copyright' and legality will surely follow. Take the plight of Sher Music (publishers of the Real Books) is in with pirates selling DVDs complete with all of the books as pdfs. Now that's a drag...

Simon

Mikec wrote:
If you went to a poetry reading, copied down the poems and then tried to sell them, you'd be well and truly illegal, wouldn't you? But if you wrote them down for your own private use, it's OK. Isn't it the same with transcribing music?

Just to pick up a small point Jools, someone playing a Charlie Parker piece either in part or in full, in public, is fine if they are either in a licensed venue or have permission from the copyright holder, surely?

 

[jools]

I knew this was a minefield.

Simon - bang on. That's the point. Money and/or ownership.

Jazz history relies on what is known as the 'vocabulary' which in many ways was originated by everyone who went before. They developed 'riffs' and ideas which crop up again and again. However, take the thread a while back on the "use of quotes"... If a player took a single lick that was very identifiably "Coltrane" and made it into a fully blown lead melody, asserting their right of ownership of that tune and released it, by default they would have based the tune on a 'protected' musical line. No?

My other angle was the idea of writing down recorded music. I know from the UK Examination Guidelines they state quite categorically that any hand written manuscript of examination tunes is regarded as an "illegal copy" and will disqualify the candidate. Hand written! So where does that leave Joe and Joanne Public, when they want to transcribe a piece of music for learning and development (and possible performance)?

From your first post on this thread:
"Performing the actual solo would be 'uncopyrightable'"
OUCH - so as players we can't protect it?

 

[Simon]

Hi Jools

Phew, Fridays eh?

I think pretty much every music draws on ideas that have gone before, not just jazz, blues etc. I mean, don't all Kenny G tunes sound the same? (esp hit an all-time low on that What a wonderful world duets album he did) 😉

But if Kenny feels that he 'owns' the pentatonic licks he plays, then that's fine.
Sly Hooter, gigging saxist, will still get asked to play a Kenny G tune during his evening gig and he'll oblige (probably) with one of Kenny's trademark runs involving the pentatonic licks he's famous for.

But it's when Sly decides to cash-in and re-record Kenny's tracks (foolishly keeping the original names) WITHOUT any form of permission from Kenny's recording company and copyright holders of the tunes etc and SELL them (or make them downloadable for free)... Kenny's lawyers fire up. And then further complicates things by putting them in a book (without permissions and copyright clearances from a whole bunch of people associate with each track) and selling that...

Yep - I'm sure it is impossible to copyright a live performance solo. You could bootleg it, go home, transcribe it, play it till you knew it inside out and learn from it and dig the sound... But that's it - I've done this cos I enjoyed the ideas the player had, and it helped my understanding of music. Would I put it in a book or sell it online as sheet music? Nope, not worth the time and it'd be stealing. Would I teach it to a pupil? Might do, and I doubt either of us would play it exactly the same way the original did. Should we then both claim ownership of what we did? Grief... this could get silly.

The Music Examinations boards stance on 'no handwritten materials' is more to do with supporting the publishing industry and making sure the student has got legible music! We try to work in together - there's a market for the music that can be purchased in a legal way and due royalties paid - and they promote this by stating no bootleg scribbling. I mean, should people be able to print out their own MOT certificates? (There's an idea)

Transcribing is a learning process - it's the 'doing' that makes it worthwhile, not really the end result. That's why I think the market for transcription books is almost dead. In Kenny G's case, I doubt the publishers (or Kenny) made much money from sales of the coupla books that came out with 'Songbird' etc at the time.

One of the problems that we face at work is trying to get permissions to produce new sheet music (in particular big band charts) is the process of getting copyright clearance for the UK. The reason - most of the tunes have multiple copyright holders who are difficult to locate and suspicious of anyone getting permission from them and want a ridiculously high royalty %. So they sit on their copyrights, the music gets old and unused and after 70 years its out of copyright and they've made zip. In fact, the major sheet music companies have almost shut-up shop on giving permissions because there's no money in it for them due to the time it takes in administration.

Another point: the number of people who'd actually buy a book of transcriptions (featuring saxophone) is in the decline. The whole 'hero-worship' days of pioneers like Pres, Jug, Newk and Trane are over. There are thousands of very able players who can do the same and more. Only a small fraction of Jazzwise's books are transcriptions, and they'd be on sale. Further, there are many pieces of hardware and software that can assist in transcribing, so why buy a book (esp if there's only a coupla tunes you wanted anyway)?

Even pop / r'n'b - eg Leona, Girls Aloud, Rhianna, Adele etc - transcriptions are pretty small sellers, but more than the jazz market f'rsure. Ie, that's where the money is. And where there's money, thay'll be dem lawyer fellas... 😉

Simon