Tech/maintenance 1946 The Martin Tenor - an overhaul thread

[Stocker]

Serial # based on 'themartinstory' puts it around 1946, but I know/have heard that isn't a perfect chart. Is there a better one to go off of?

Keys are not nickel/silver like my Handcraft tenor, but rather are brass colored, so I am not sure the best way to confirm all of this for the sake of this thread and future people's needs.

The best Martin serial number chart is here. While I don't know if it was based on factory records, the nature of the chart would seem to suggest so.

The Committee III, to my knowledge, never used cupronickel keywork. Not that there couldn't be ones out there, but it certainly wasn't regular production. I'd hypothesize that postwar materials shortages made it either not economical or not possible to use it. If it's yellow, it's almost certainly the same brass everyone else used.

 

[PigSquealer]

The best Martin serial number chart is here. While I don't know if it was based on factory records, the nature of the chart would seem to suggest so.

I find the SN# link above along with others to be reasonably accurate from 1925-27 onwards. Dated advertising catalogs with models and noted endorsed players supporting the timeline. It’s pre 1925 IMHO that’s lacking supporting information. There’s a chance Martin may have started saxophone production as early as 1912 to 1915 and SN# 15000. 17221 is not the starting SN#.
#15605 is publicly viewable.
C-melody tenor saxophone, low pitch
From my personal archive.

The Committee III, to my knowledge, never used cupronickel keywork. Not that there couldn't be ones out there, but it certainly wasn't regular production. I'd hypothesize that postwar materials shortages made it either not economical or not possible to use it. If it's yellow, it's almost certainly the same brass everyone else used.

I completely agree. 1941-1953 materials were whatever was affordable and available. The reason @kamak has an interesting tenor. An early example of post war production. 1944 = none. ‘45-‘46 = 9k. Almost double pre-war production. Still hand made or semi automated ? Production processes learned during the war not friendly to using cupronickel ? Or the process produced a better product than previously made in brass. Who knows 🤷‍♂️.

 

[PigSquealer]

@kamak Martin site update.
The original link to The Martin Story is now working again.
The Martin Story - Martin Home model saxophones

The Wayback link no longer works.

 

[thomsax]

Copper-nickel (cupronnickel) is an alloy of copper and nickel + stengthen elements like iron, aluminium, manganese.
Nickel-silver is an alloy of copper, zink and nickel.

The "silver" is plated on the key. I guess to make it more shiny.

 

[thomsax]

Production processes learned during the war not friendly to using cupronickel ? Or the process produced a better product than previously made in brass. Who knows 🤷‍♂️.

I found this on intrernet.

Copper nickel – usage and application​

Cupronickel alloys are primarily used in ship building and offshore drilling industries due to low macrofouling (fouling caused by large organisms, such as oysters, mussels, clams, and barnacles) rates, and good fabricability.

They are also usable in chemical applications, paper industry and automotive business. Interestingly, cupronickel alloy was used to build steam locomotives’ fireboxes but during the World War II, due to a general lack of non-ferrous metals, it was replaced by steel.

Non-marine purposes for cupronickel include cryogenic applications, brake tubing and coins (1 and 2 Euro denominations and U.S. 5 cent). An interesting fact regarding nickel coins: from 1947 to 2012, all “silver” coinage in the UK was made from cupronickel. In 2012 the two smallest denominations were replaced with low cost nickel-plated steel coins.

Since these alloys have strong antimicrobial properties, they are hygienic “safe-to-touch” materials, reducing cross-contamination and infections, which is particularly utilized in hospital intensive care units.

 

[PigSquealer]

I found this on intrernet.

Copper nickel – usage and application​

Cupronickel alloys are primarily used in ship building and offshore drilling industries due to low macrofouling (fouling caused by large organisms, such as oysters, mussels, clams, and barnacles) rates, and good fabricability.

They are also usable in chemical applications, paper industry and automotive business. Interestingly, cupronickel alloy was used to build steam locomotives’ fireboxes but during the World War II, due to a general lack of non-ferrous metals, it was replaced by steel.

Non-marine purposes for cupronickel include cryogenic applications, brake tubing and coins (1 and 2 Euro denominations and U.S. 5 cent). An interesting fact regarding nickel coins: from 1947 to 2012, all “silver” coinage in the UK was made from cupronickel. In 2012 the two smallest denominations were replaced with low cost nickel-plated steel coins.

Since these alloys have strong antimicrobial properties, they are hygienic “safe-to-touch” materials, reducing cross-contamination and infections, which is particularly utilized in hospital intensive care units.

Thanks for doing this research study. This may at first seem off topic to this repair thread, but honestly these small bits of information are really helpful. The information is useful for understanding heat (soldering) , bent key needs or polishing. All three I’ve been challenged with at one time or another. Especially with straightening and polishing. Some bent keywork took an insane amount of force to make a minor move. Polishing, after using several buffing compounds the parts still looked foggy. I gave up.
Maybe @Dr G can offer some advice to better enhance quality results for these needs ?

 

[kamak]

Glad we have all this knowledge pouring into this thread! Hope it helps many people in the future too. Fantastic!

My update is that I removed all the old pads and measured the pad cups and pads. Then I filled up the bathtub to soak the stuff in a mixture of SimpleGreen. Also threw the sax body in there too to let it get some extra grime off.

Next up is to scrub it all down and get everything cleaned nicely, and prepped for pads, which I need to order.

 

[Stocker]

I find the SN# link above along with others to be reasonably accurate from 1925-27 onwards. Dated advertising catalogs with models and noted endorsed players supporting the timeline. It’s pre 1925 IMHO that’s lacking supporting information. There’s a chance Martin may have started saxophone production as early as 1912 to 1915 and SN# 15000. 17221 is not the starting SN#.

The earliest reference I've found to Martin as a band instrument manufacturer (i.e., not a repair shop) in Elkhart is in the October 27, 1906 edition of The Music Trade Review, in which it's called "one of the latest enterprises" in the city. That leaves 13 years off the beginning of the chart.

Some rough extrapolating would put 15000 in late 1918.

Was there enough of a market for saxophones to support a third U.S. manufacturer before WWI? H.N. White started in 1917, producing almost entirely for the military at the time, and Holton started later that year. The restricted supply of European instruments due to the war may have been what spurred on U.S. makers.

 

[Stocker]

Copper-nickel (cupronnickel) is an alloy of copper and nickel + stengthen elements like iron, aluminium, manganese.
Nickel-silver is an alloy of copper, zink and nickel.

The "silver" is plated on the key. I guess to make it more shiny.


View attachment 36550

The shiny part is where the lacquer remains. The keywork was buffed to a shine just like the body and then lacquered over, not plated. There is nothing "silver" except for the color.

Yes, "cupronickel" can refer to a wide array of copper-nickel alloys. But since "nickel silver" (or worse, "German silver", or worse yet, "Liberty silver") have long sowed confusion for some because silver (the metal) is not involved at all, I use the term because it gives adequate clarity when it comes to discussing woodwind keywork. I don't know of any other copper-nickel alloys that have common use in woodwinds.

 

[PigSquealer]

Glad we have all this knowledge pouring into this thread! Hope it helps many people in the future too. Fantastic!

My update is that I removed all the old pads and measured the pad cups and pads. Then I filled up the bathtub to soak the stuff in a mixture of SimpleGreen. Also threw the sax body in there too to let it get some extra grime off.

Next up is to scrub it all down and get everything cleaned nicely, and prepped for pads, which I need to order.

If the tub water looks like it has golden glitter. Well you know where your remaining lacquer has gone. If no loss occurred you got lucky. Soaking even in cold water for an extended period of time can loosen or remove the lacquer. Then add the Simple Green into the equation. An acid and one of my favorites.
Do pay attention to any goo that wasn’t released in the soaking at posts. The holes or threads need to be clean. Depending on the level of muck I often pretreat those areas.
Post wash dry with compressed air, hair dryer or sunshine. Be kind to the springs. A smear of WD-40 keeps the rust at bay. Spray a small amount into shot glass size container using precaution in keeping it off your face. Apply to springs with Q-earbud thingy.

Make sure the key cups are flat & round or you’ll get false measurements.

 

[PigSquealer]

The earliest reference I've found to Martin as a band instrument manufacturer (i.e., not a repair shop) in Elkhart is in the October 27, 1906 edition of The Music Trade Review, in which it's called "one of the latest enterprises" in the city. That leaves 13 years off the beginning of the chart.

Great find. Those little snippets are getting easier to find with the fully digitized archive. Thanks NAMM !
To read the article @Stocker has found. See lower middle of page 38.

eLibrary: Music Trade Review - Issue: 1906 Vol. 43 N. 17 - Page 1

Music Trade Review Magazine - Issue 1906 Vol. 43 N. 17 - Page 1

elibrary.arcade-museum.com

 

[kamak]

If the tub water looks like it has golden glitter. Well you know where your remaining lacquer has gone. If no loss occurred you got lucky. Soaking even in cold water for an extended period of time can loosen or remove the lacquer. Then add the Simple Green into the equation. An acid and one of my favorites.
Do pay attention to any goo that wasn’t released in the soaking at posts. The holes or threads need to be clean. Depending on the level of muck I often pretreat those areas.
Post wash dry with compressed air, hair dryer or sunshine. Be kind to the springs. A smear of WD-40 keeps the rust at bay. Spray a small amount into shot glass size container using precaution in keeping it off your face. Apply to springs with Q-earbud thingy.

Make sure the key cups are flat & round or you’ll get false measurements.

Well there was no golden glitter at all, just alot of muck and grime.

However, after taking the body and keys out and drying, it left a weird white film on the lacquered parts.

Using lemon Pledge helps to remove/subdue it. Perhaps a day and a half in the soaking was too much? At least its Uber clean now. And not getting any worse than it already was!

 

[kamak]

I have a tech duster that plugs in, worked fantastic to dry the parts off and get into the little spots. I immediately applied wd40 to springs with a cotton swab post drying phase. They were a little rusty, but then, they were before soaking too.

Then I went and applied a coat of lemon Pledge to the body and keys to get that white film off.

2nd pic with flash shows the clean inside of the tube through tone holes. I forgot to take a before pic of that. It was disgusting and full of grime and dirt.

I am thinking of trying to use some Barkeepers friend on the red tarnish on the bell and a few other spots to clean it up. Thoughts? 🤔

 

[turf3]

As far as nickel alloys - I try to avoid the common names since as noted, Ag is not present, and nowadays AI will scrape misinformation and error and propagate it - as far as I know Martin in the so called Comm 1 and 2 is the only sax maker to make keywork entirely of Ni alloy. However the vast majority of clarinets have Ni alloy keys, either plated with Ni or Ag, and student flutes almost all have Ni keywork plated with Ag. I know that Selmer, Martin, Buescher and King at least, have used Ni alloy in selected places in sax keywork, such as long rods and touch pieces. I can only assume that the slightly higher processing costs of the harder stronger material eventually led to its being abandoned. Keilwerth made a run of taxes with Ni alloy bodies as well. Not to be confused with the common Ni plated brass saxophones.

 

[kamak]

Well, just 3 minutes of work produced this:

 

[kamak]

Then about 20 mins of work...

 

[PigSquealer]

Perhaps a day and a half in the soaking was too much?

36 hours 🤯! Yeah, like 34-35 hours more than my norm. That explains the foggy lacquer too. Sometimes the foggy lacquer will clear up after drying out for a day or two.

 

[PigSquealer]

Then about 20 mins of work...View attachment 36612

Barkeepers Friend? Wet, dry, on sponge/ cloth / brush? Nice results !

 

[kamak]

36 hours 🤯! Yeah, like 34-35 hours more than my norm. That explains the foggy lacquer too. Sometimes the foggy lacquer will clear up after drying out for a day or two.

Using some lemon Pledge helped clear it up, fortunately!

 

[kamak]

Barkeepers Friend? Wet, dry, on sponge/ cloth / brush? Nice results !

This was bottle of BKF paste, applied to a cotton terry cloth, then either gentle or medium scrubbing. No brush. Then a simple wipe down with a clean part of the towel.

I'm very pleased with the results! I figured I couldn't make it any worse, so did a small spot, and it came up with minimal effort. Some dark spots took more effort, but still I'd consider minimal. Not perfect, but it's 80 years old!