Tech/maintenance 1946 The Martin Tenor - an overhaul thread

Good for you :doh:
Well, emojis be damned, did you read the second part?

"...but I'd put a hard limit on how long/hard I'd try to get a good solder fillet there, and I'd be fully prepared to just take the thing off and clean every soldering surface down to bright clean metal..."
 
Well, emojis be damned, did you read the second part?

"...but I'd put a hard limit on how long/hard I'd try to get a good solder fillet there, and I'd be fully prepared to just take the thing off and clean every soldering surface down to bright clean metal..."
Yes I did.
OK, I'll be blunt.
Forget what you THINK you know.

Take the thing off, clean the surfaces, wire in place and resolder.
All your so-called hard limit does is ruin more of the finish and/or waste time.
It will not work - unless you're very, very lucky. AND...if it did, it won't last.

No ifs, no buts, no theories or suppositions. Just experience. Take it or leave it - it's not my horn - but I have had to fix so many Martins where folks have tried and failed. I have a word for them but Pete won't let me say it.

I hope that's crystal clear.
 
You know, you could have just left it alone, rather than posting an insulting "good for you" with insulting head-smack emoji.

I was saying what I would try. If it didn't work, I made very clear that I would be prepared to do the full job.

There isn't any finish to speak of already - it looks like someone went after the thing with a wire brush and a can of Krylon clear.

I have resoldered a bunch of stuff on brass. Sometimes it works to just reheat and get the solder that's there to flow, much of the time you have to take the whole thing down to bright metal.

Anyway, I'm done with this particular discussion. I'll think about whether to put you on ignore or not. I like most of what you have to say, but I don't take kindly to insult.
 
You know, you could have just left it alone, rather than posting an insulting "good for you" with insulting head-smack emoji.

I was saying what I would try. If it didn't work, I made very clear that I would be prepared to do the full job.

There isn't any finish to speak of already - it looks like someone went after the thing with a wire brush and a can of Krylon clear.

I have resoldered a bunch of stuff on brass. Sometimes it works to just reheat and get the solder that's there to flow, much of the time you have to take the whole thing down to bright metal.

Anyway, I'm done with this particular discussion. I'll think about whether to put you on ignore or not. I like most of what you have to say, but I don't take kindly to insult.
Bless ya.

I make it clear in my article that aside from the bodges there are no short cuts. Yep, it might work on a key guard or a pillar - but with no finish to worry about you ought to go straight in with the proper job. Every time - because having to dive in and fixed a bodged tonehole is waaaay more expensive than an individual pillar. As I said - been there, done that...and the customer always pays.
Now, I don't mind at all if some amazing repair guru comes up with a revolutionary fix for soldered-on toneholes without having to take them off and resolder them....because I, and many other techs, figured out a very long time ago that there are no shortcuts.
Do I appear brusque? Good - because I'm sick and tired of 'internet experts' who lack the nous to take hard-earned advice. I could be doing many other things...but I choose to be here in a (vain) effort to pass on at least some of what I've learned in the hope that it will improve people's understanding of best and proven techniques.
But if you can come up with an alternative method that really works - be my guest. I'm all ears - the floor is yours. We will hail you as a hero. I can wait.

But what have you come up with thus far? "Sometimes it works".
Honestly - I despair.
"Hey! Try this! It 'might' work!" On a vintage Martin. Y'know, thanks...but no thanks.
Honestly...would you be impressed with such advice in your field of expertise? No - no you wouldn't...you'd consult a professional. So get a grip.
I care what happens to these horns - so do it right or go home. Barely takes any longer.

I don't do American hissy fits - so you go right ahead and press that ignore button - but I will pitch my years of graft and experience against supposition and folklore any day of the week. It's what this forum deserves. And if that bothers you, you know where to go. I would hope you at least have the commonsense to realise you're out of your depth on this one - and that's no shame. But having a wobbly is.
If any of the above makes no sense to you then you go right ahead and hit that button. I will not lose sleep over it.
 
I love my '56 Marty tenor. It was my first real return-to-the-sax-after-years horn in 2014. Overhaul by Matt Stohrer. The low C chimney was leaking and I goobered it up with JB Weld to make it playable then blamed it on someone else when I sent the horn in. Matt removed and resoldered...among many, many other things the horn needed. It's still bangin' 12 years later with no more issues.

I don't know if Matt reads this forum, but I realize I just admitted to a lie. Sorry, Matt.
 
I love my '56 Marty tenor. It was my first real return-to-the-sax-after-years horn in 2014. Overhaul by Matt Stohrer. The low C chimney was leaking and I goobered it up with JB Weld to make it playable then blamed it on someone else when I sent the horn in. Matt removed and resoldered...among many, many other things the horn needed. It's still bangin' 12 years later with no more issues.
I get a lot of that..."I didn't do it!". I used to think they were lying...until I saw the work that 'pros' were turning out.

Now Matt. There's a guy! I have never seen his workmanship, but his ethos alone speaks volumes. If I couldn't fix my own horns he'd be the man I sent them to. I have no higher praise.
 
@kamak , if the parts has a good gap of 1/3 or more it will likely fail / fall off. A gentle lifting from gap will determine if the socket is solid or not. It’s hit & miss. Do make an index mark ( little scratch in tarnish).
1786573870292.webp


Index mark on inside too.
1786574427028.webp


Tin the part. Place & wire to hold. Be quick with the heat. Neutralize/ clean area with baking soda and water mix.

Drawback of reflowing from my experience.
Difficulty of cleaning & quality flow of old unknown solder.
Can become an unanticipated big freeking mess instantly. Especially on silver plated units.
75% + are unsuccessful epic fails. A complete restart is necessary. Add risk of detaching surrounding parts.
Not enough time to do correctly once but enough time to do twice ? Choose.

The benefit of reflowing is proving you ignored solid advice.
1786575865497.webp

1786575961555.webp

1786576088780.webp

1786576114818.webp
 
@kamak , if the parts has a good gap of 1/3 or more it will likely fail / fall off. A gentle lifting from gap will determine if the socket is solid or not. It’s hit & miss. Do make an index mark ( little scratch in tarnish).
View attachment 36465

Index mark on inside too.
View attachment 36466

Tin the part. Place & wire to hold. Be quick with the heat. Neutralize/ clean area with baking soda and water mix.

Drawback of reflowing from my experience.
Difficulty of cleaning & quality flow of old unknown solder.
Can become an unanticipated big freeking mess instantly. Especially on silver plated units.
75% + are unsuccessful epic fails. A complete restart is necessary. Add risk of detaching surrounding parts.
Not enough time to do correctly once but enough time to do twice ? Choose.

The benefit of reflowing is proving you ignored solid advice.
View attachment 36467
View attachment 36468
View attachment 36469
View attachment 36470
I'd be very pleased to do something that neat. I understand that the orange stuff is to contain the flow of the solder. I've heard of using Tippex for this purpose (probably from one of your posts - sorry, my memory isn't great). But I have never seen orange Tippex, so - what have you used here?

(The pics also remind me that the 1/4 BSP gas pipe adaptors I ordered were apparently delivered yesterday, and were forgotten in a blur of excitement over the partial eclipse we had here last night. Not going to be able to put this off much longer...)
 
I'd be very pleased to do something that neat. I understand that the orange stuff is to contain the flow of the solder. I've heard of using Tippex for this purpose (probably from one of your posts - sorry, my memory isn't great). But I have never seen orange Tippex, so - what have you used here?

(The pics also remind me that the 1/4 BSP gas pipe adaptors I ordered were apparently delivered yesterday, and were forgotten in a blur of excitement over the partial eclipse we had here last night. Not going to be able to put this off much longer...)
The product is Tix Anti-flux. Amazon.com: Tix Anti-Flux 1/2 oz : Tools & Home Improvement
It’s kind of an ammonia mix with clay (?) like solder a flow shield/ blocker. I’m not impressed with the results. The container evaporates quickly ! Maybe the results were quality from the intended range of product use. Dunno? Other techs have reported success with liquid white out. The old school product for making typing corrections. I need to test Whiteout too. Thanks for the wink of approval as pleasing. Yeah it looks just fine at two meters 🤪 My pictures brutally close up. Reality. I have nothing to hide.
The raw truth in trying to help others. FWIW I haven’t been back to this project yet(1917?) Martin. The clean up / polishing stage. There’s a potential aesthetic improvement . Dunno yet ?
 
FYI here's the G# my local tech fixed on my Handcraft tenor. Some lacquer burn off but it turned out good and plays great.
Looks like the G tonehole's had some work done to it too - so you might want to check the straightness of the body.
Tonehole leaks around the G# on a Martin are very often the result of the horn having had a fall at some point.
 
Looks like the G tonehole's had some work done to it too - so you might want to check the straightness of the body.
Tonehole leaks around the G# on a Martin are very often the result of the horn having had a fall at some point.
Out of curiosity from what your experience tells you, what are you seeing that shows you that? Is it the left side of the tone hole you speak of?

I imagine its from the bell-body brace being right there why it produces leaks at the G#?
 
Out of curiosity from what your experience tells you, what are you seeing that shows you that? Is it the left side of the tone hole you speak of?

I imagine its from the bell-body brace being right there why it produces leaks at the G#?
That's pretty much it.
If you think of the main body tube as being straight, like the letter l, and then bending like the letter c when the horn gets dropped onto the bell, you can see that the rear of the tube gets stretched while the front gets put into compression.
This will happen no matter what style of bell brace is fitted - but vintage horns that have a brace that's soldered to the body between the toneholes will have the added complication of the brace punching into the tube. It all gets rather nasty very quickly - especially on a Martin.
From what I can see from the photos the body looks reasonable straight - so I'd assume that whoever soldered up those toneholes did so after straightening it. But it's always worth checking....because that's not something you want to have to correct after you've reassembled the horn.

BTW - you're going to have to sort out the sling ring too.
 
That's pretty much it.
If you think of the main body tube as being straight, like the letter l, and then bending like the letter c when the horn gets dropped onto the bell, you can see that the rear of the tube gets stretched while the front gets put into compression.
This will happen no matter what style of bell brace is fitted - but vintage horns that have a brace that's soldered to the body between the toneholes will have the added complication of the brace punching into the tube. It all gets rather nasty very quickly - especially on a Martin.
From what I can see from the photos the body looks reasonable straight - so I'd assume that whoever soldered up those toneholes did so after straightening it. But it's always worth checking....because that's not something you want to have to correct after you've reassembled the horn.

BTW - you're going to have to sort out the sling ring too.
That all makes sense.

The Handcraft's body is straight as I can tell, I dont think it was dropped. I know th e Committee 3 does have the bow dent and so was likely dropped for that to happen.

My Handcraft tenor was overhauled last year and aside from some minor pad adjustments once has been great.

This Committee body also looks straight to my eye, but I certainly dont have the experience that many do here, that much is certain.

Since I am not a pro player, nor a tech, this is more a hobby because I just really like playing sax and have really enjoyed Martin's and want to keep them going. I do this stuff when I have time around my full time job, and doing things with my wife. Since I am not anywhere near 'retirement age' yet, I also dont have alot of time during the day either 😉

I do appreciate everyone's feedback and help though. This place is great! I'd be struggling alot if it wasnt for the many experienced people here. Probably more like floundering!
 
Cleaned the neck/octave key and the body this afternoon.
11749.webp


The mystery of why F# trill tone hole has a leak is obvious now. The post next to it took a hit at some point. Hard to see the tiny dent in the pic.
11748.webp
 
@kamak , as a suggestion write on face of each pad indicating the key cup position. On a ledger write down this position and the thickness as removed best as possible.
Clean, flatten and round the key cups. Then measure the cups ID. This being at a cross in multiple directions. Average the needed diameter and record needed OD size.
Round up or down ??? Better snug than loose. You can’t expdand a small one.

Most pad suppliers furnish pads in .5mm increments. Not all have thickness options…
Martins are notorious for needing thin pads. Like 3.8mm / .150” Most available are 4.0-5.0mm / .160-.197
Pads with plain rivets will sound just fine. Likely what it left the factory with.
Pad maker choice gets interesting. Music Medic Pro pads are good choice if all the action is perfect. Tone holes leveled and you want a heavy impression. The fabrication of the Pro Pads is less forgiving. Including the back are solid pressed hard. No range to iron back to reduce thickness. Setting an impression with a RTH or Martin bevel you will find challenging.
Option that’s more user friendly. The MM SF grade. This is 4.0mm/.160 pad. The wrap pleats on back can be ironed to .150. They take impressions setting easier.
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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