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Tech/maintenance My new "DIY" pads...

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DavidUK said:
What about the effect of saliva on leather? I wonder if that has any similar enzymes, apart from its hardening effect on felt in pads. Old leather pads often break down at the edges or where the cup has interacted. Saliva and it's contents may well contribute to the erosion of these areas.
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I don't really think it's worth trying to compare what happens inside a dishwasher against saliva / condensation inside a saxophone
 
DavidUK said:
What about the effect of saliva on leather? I wonder if that has any similar enzymes, apart from its hardening effect on felt in pads. Old leather pads often break down at the edges or where the cup has interacted. Saliva and it's contents may well contribute to the erosion of these areas.
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Spit and polish puts a good shine on your boots.
 
Here's a question for you...

I have five horns destined for pad prototypes now. Two completed to the new specifications, i.e. the "final" version (I hope), just waiting for a tech's check over, and three more stripped and measured ready to order the parts for their pads.

They all need a clearance gap between the pad edges and the key cup sides, to allow the pads to self-level.
Of the two completed, the first one has a 1mm gap, the other a 0.5mm gap.
But why am I specifying the pad edges to be a certain distance from the cup sides, why not use the edge of tone hole as the starting point, or a median between tone hole and cup diameters?
The pad has to have a sufficient overlap to allow for (almost every) non-concentric cup to tone hole relationship, i.e. a pad sat centrally in its cup won't have an equal tone hole overlap all the way around it.

If I have 23 key cup diameters which are all different that means ordering backing discs in 23 diameters and pad facings in 23 diameters. That's a lot of faff at the cutters and a lot of stock to hold.

If, say, I have a tone hole of 25mm and a key cup of 35mm I could use a 31mm pad and that same pad could be used for a tone hole of 27mm with a 38mm cup and for one of 26mm with a 33mm cup.

BUT... would you, the end user, baulk at the idea of differing gaps between pad edges and cup sides if you were ever to look closely and think "why are all the gaps different?"

This is more of a marketing question than anything, but additionally a reduced number of pad sizes where, say, only odd sized pads (15mm; 17mm; 19mm; 21mm etc.) are produced would assist in halving the stocking cost for repairers.

On the other hand, DIY buyers may be more inclined to want the precise sizes, allowing for a minimum gap, to satisfy any requirement for regularity?

I've never heard of anyone querying why key cup to tone hole ratios vary so much on one sax, but they do and I doubt anyone has ever shunned a horn because of this.

I'l carry on right now with ordering the "right" size in relation to the cups, i.e. 1mm smaller to allow for a 0.5mm gap all around, but this really only follows the convention with leather pads where they have always been matched to the cup sizes.

There's no right or wrong solution, just your opinion if you'd care to offer one as a player or as a tech?

Many thanks.
 
It's all about 'perceived quality' whether or not it makes any difference to the functionality:

If it was me investing in a premium pad system, I'd probably want a uniform gap rather than feeling like corners had been cut.

I appreciate that you have not just tone hole hole sizes, but cup sizes to contend with. Can you system utilise laser cutting, or cutting with one of the digital craft cutters (like a computer printer with a little blade that whizzes round and cuts out shapes)?
 
peterpick said:
sorry, but do the centres of key cups correspond to the 'centres' of toneholes? if not, i can imagine difficulties might arise with edges not coinciding.... or coinciding.
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No, they don't. It's rare for them to be concentric.
I measure all outgoing pads' indented seats in relation to the pad edge to check my incoming pads won't "fall off" the edge of the tone hole.
Also, the new pad material self-heals any seats where a new non-concentric seat has been created by the removal of a pad and its replacement in a different rotated position. This avoids my theoretical fear of a leak where two seats cross over. In use the pads do not rotate as they are held firm by the strong magnet base.
 
greenstripe said:
It's all about 'perceived quality' whether or not it makes any difference to the functionality:

If it was me investing in a premium pad system, I'd probably want a uniform gap rather than feeling like corners had been cut.

I appreciate that you have not just tone hole hole sizes, but cup sizes to contend with. Can you system utilise laser cutting, or cutting with one of the digital craft cutters (like a computer printer with a little blade that whizzes round and cuts out shapes)?
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The stainless steel backing discs are laser cut and will remain so to avoid warp from pressing (I used to be a steel buyer for a presswork company). The steel thickness precludes any other cutting method bar water cutting but that's uneconomical.
Pads are cut by a washer manufacturer which applies the self-adhesive backing also. Their first bulk shipment was spot on.
It's costly ordering small prototype batches and not knowing whether it's going to market. As order quantities increase the price per pad drops dramatically as you'd expect. Ordering every full diameter from 12mm to 52mm (alto and tenor) won't be an issue when buying thousands but I'm also thinking of those who buy from me.
Having said that, tech's will be used to stocking every size of Pisoni etc so no big deal to them eh?
 
rhysonsax said:
What I would want to see is consistent gap to the edge of the cup on all tone holes. That preference would be about tidiness and perceived quality rather than function or expected life.

I could speculate on what other people might prefer but that would be based on nothing.

Rhys
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I can see this, thanks.
Of course the other prototype I've yet to get around to removes most of the untouched key cups altogether and so I look forward to matching the pad diameter more closely to the tone hole.
That will also be aesthetically pleasing.
This is more of a back-burner as all it does it show a manufacturer the potential to lose most cups and save some weight.
Few MkVI owners are likely to want to do this!
The standard new pads make no alterations to the sax other than removing the pads and gluing in the magnets.
 
Consistent fit and finish would be my choice.
If it were me. I would build a list from the most common sizes used. Odd sizes note to customer and potential gap.
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PigSquealer said:
@vzjp , make the inventory of the most common sizes used. There’s no reason to make a size that sells once in a blue moon.
“Inventory what sells mostly “
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Yes, this is what I'm doing. Just five horns stripped and measured so far so I've ordered their pad parts in small quantities of each size to make up the prototypes, but more than I need so as to have a small inventory of each on the shelf. It's a balance between cheaper bulk buying and trying not to buy stock I'll only use once in a blue moon.

As more horns are measured, and possibly using retailers pad sizes for common horns, I'll order in larger quantities of each.

Here are the next three waiting for parts to assemble. The 21 already went out as a passaround but is back being upgraded to the new materials and assembly methods. Vito (Yamaha) tenor just back from blasting today, to match the 21's finish. It was horrid looking before. SML yet to be cleaned up and will retain its patina...

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I posted this video as a new thread ( Saxophones - Video - New Self-levelling pads vs. Traditional pads ) but have added it here too, for completeness...

Test playing two identical model Jupiter altos, model 767 (not 769 as I thought)...
One, with traditional pads, just checked over by tech Paul Carrington.
The other, fully padded with my new pads, just checked over by Andy Bestwick in Leicester.

Quick video via Drew's iPhone...

View: https://youtu.be/vn-82M1DUSU

Many thanks to Drew Stansall for his interest in my project and for his help: Drew Stansall
 
DavidUK said:
Yes, this is what I'm doing. Just five horns stripped and measured so far so I've ordered their pad parts in small quantities of each size to make up the prototypes, but more than I need so as to have a small inventory of each on the shelf. It's a balance between cheaper bulk buying and trying not to buy stock I'll only use once in a blue moon.

As more horns are measured, and possibly using retailers pad sizes for common horns, I'll order in larger quantities of each.

Here are the next three waiting for parts to assemble. The 21 already went out as a passaround but is back being upgraded to the new materials and assembly methods. Vito (Yamaha) tenor just back from blasting today, to match the 21's finish. It was horrid looking before. SML yet to be cleaned up and will retain its patina...

View attachment 27218
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Tenor looks great. I'm not a fan of de-lacquering a sax just for the sake of it, but if it looked horrid before it makes sense, and the soda blast effect looks good. I liked the look of the Yamaha alto when I tried it a while ago.
 
Another test play of my new pads...

View: https://youtu.be/2KDLx3IZPME

Gerard is a spellbinding encyclopaedia of all things saxophone. He could see many advantages in my pad system and was really encouraging. When he played the traditionally padded alto up and down at supersonic speed I was worried he'd cause mine to falter. The most thorough shake down yet. But it didn't miss a beat... phew! He has some suggestions to move forward and I think he will be a great resource for the future. Thanks too to my sax tutor Dave Plummer who suggested I contact Gerard.
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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